I think most people would agree with you that the attack on the King David Hotel was heinous. That said, what do you want to do about it? If you would, name me a nation without a similar blot on their record. Shall we say that any nation with such a blot can't fight terrorism now?

The Middle East was full of Nazis and Arafat was still calling them 'heroes' before he died. Christianity committed awful crimes during the crusades, and in turn the Islamic world committed horrific crimes against Hindus who lived further East, as I am sure you are aware. Americans bombed Dresden, firebombed Japan. Japan committed unthinkable crimes in Asia and Russia committed unthinkable crimes in Germany when they invaded. The French Resistance played what many would call "terrorism" opposing Germany.

Is there any end to it? The facts of the current situation is that Hezbollah crossed the Israeli border, and killed and kidnapped their soldiers. Worse, they work with the approval of the Lebanese government. If you want to punish people in Israel for the King David Hotel attack, go off and be an activist. That attack doesn't negate the ability to punish other attacks though.

If it did, we'd be attacking one another fearlessly 24/7. Is that the kind of moral attitude you are proposing? That because Israel committed an atrocity that anyone should be able to?

That said, what do you want to do about it? If you would, name me a nation without a similar blot on their record. Sh

You surprise me at times BakerStreet: you are a humanist at heart not cynical apologist for power politics. I appreciate and respect that position.

I do not know the answer to the issues you raise and I do not want to sound alaaming, but I think history only teahes us to negotiate with mutual understanding andd there is hope for peace.

Is that the kind of moral attitude you are proposing?

Not at all. My post was only to draw the attention to a historical fact and not to justify an aggressive stance.

I understand that, but you have to understand that in the absence of the moral authority to fight this kind of thing, what reason would there be to reject it other than empty ideals? You can see from all sides how easily religion or any other system of beliefs can be twisted to accept inhumanity.

Another way of looking at it is like this. Can Germany fight Nazism with a Nazi past? Can the US fight intolerance with so much intolerance in its past? Can France speak out against imperialism with its imperialistic past? Can nations like China ever take a stance on anything?

Given the universal nature of wrong, I don't see how you can make this point about Israel without disallowing advocacy of the cause you, yourself are espousing. There'd be virtually no one in the UN that could discuss fighting any kind of intolerance, injustice, or inhumanity.

Worse, if we consider ourselves to be totally soiled, why pretend to be clean at all? You might find Lebanon and the Palestinians in far worse shape if Israel was condemned to having eternally dirty hands no matter how they behave.

What history shows is that tactics of Israelis reprisal many times the intensity of the incident they are responding to has not helped solve the problem. When an Israeli soldier was kidnapped in Gaza Israel took action against Gaza and impacted the lives of a million people most of which had NOTHING to do with the kidnapping. Then two soldiers were taken along the Lebanon Israeli Border and Israel destroys major areas on Lebanon and endangers the new government. The response to the kidnappings was totally out of proportion to the incident. Now we have two major wars over the capture of three soldiers.

How many new enemies has Israel created? Hezbollah resulted from the attacks on Lebanon in 1982. Many Moslems look to these groups as a way to fight the occupation and unwarranted size Israel conducts. Most countries now have taken the position that although the seizure of the soldiers was wrong; the actions Israel has taken are far too great given the offense. To say that the seizure of three Israeli soldiers endanger the security of Israel as Bush claims is just nonsense and makes anyone that claims that look the fool.

Our refusal to call for a cease fire and our support for the all out war Israel is conducting in Gaza and Lebanon has made us many new enemies that are of the type that would try and perpetrate another 9/11. The actions of all the parties-- Israel, the Moslem terrorist groups and he United States are moving us further not closer to a REAL solution.

Until the underlying conditions that cause and support the radical Moslem groups is changed, they will not end to the violence and the attacks on Gaza and Lebanon will just create a new group of people that hate Israel so much they will continue to attack them in the future.

Typical col liberal bs. The Israelis could do absolutely nothing and they still would be attacked. Leave it up to col and bahu to defend the terrorists and blame Israel.

Until the underlying conditions that cause and support the radical Moslem groups is changed, they will not end to the violence and the attacks on Gaza and Lebanon will just create a new group of people that hate Israel so much they will continue to attack them in the future.

The underlying conditions is islam itself. You cannot negotiate or have a cease-fire with terrorists. Although I'm sure you and the rest of the democratic party would favor it.

"Can Israel fight terrorism with an Irgun past?"

Two things:

First, this question translates to, "can people who once behaved badly stop behaving badly, and start solving their problems the right way?" And the answer is, obviously, yes. Example: Israel.

Second, Israel is an excellent example of how people can in good faith abandon terror tactics in favor of political, diplomatic, and military tactics. Terror organizations such as Fatah, Hamas, and Hezb'Allah are excellent examples of how people who are given ample opportunity to abandon terror tactics can decide to continue with terror tactics anyway.

Bahu dwells here on Israel's past terrorist activities, which they have long since abandoned. At the same time, he ignores the present-day terrorist activities of Israel's enemies, who show no signs of ever abandoning such tactics.

Absolutely, yes.

#6 by stutefish Mon, July 24, 2006 2:04 PM

I agree. This is literally nit-picking. Picking one group of people as if they were the only ones in this situation. he who is free of sin cast the first stone.

#4 by COL Gene Mon, July 24, 2006 10:15 AM

Sure, your idea is to hide our tails between our legs, surrender all of our nukes and bend over and take it like a man, right? As far as your concerned we should just completely ignore the rest of the world and live as if none of them exist. What a joke. I figure your next book will be found under the comedy category.

My idea is to use our military to defend this country when a REAL danger warrants risking their lives. Iraq was NOT a danger that warranted risking the lives of out troops.

The situation in the Middle East is complicated. For several thousand years prior to 1948, the Palestinians lived on what the world decided was to be modern day Israel. In creating Israel, millions of people were displaced with NO place to live. How would you feel if the place were you family lived for as long as anyone could remember was taken from you and given to another group of people? The cause of the hatred is understandable.

These people fought back because the Jews now lived in the place where they called home. They were not provided an alternate place just pushed from one area to another. The Israelis deserve a lot of credit for creating their country but they have made the lives of the people that were displaced when the world created Israel even more intolerable with wars and occupation. Every time Israel makes the lives of the Palestine’s worse they create more enemies. One Israeli soldier is captured and a million people have no electricity because Israel attacked Gaza. That will never end the hatred that is the cause of the fighting in the Middle-East!

One Israeli soldier is captured and a million people have no electricity because Israel attacked Gaza. That will never end the hatred that is the cause of the fighting in the Middle-East!

So you would sacrifice the life of a soldier so people can have their electricity turned back on?

Every time Israel makes the lives of the Palestine’s worse they create more enemies

Israel doesn't make the lives of the palestinians worse, they do that on their own. With all the money the palestinians have spent on weapons and killing Israelis, how much food would that buy their people? Just imagine if they put half the effort into building something for themselves instead of hating Israel for no real reason.

Worse, if we consider ourselves to be totally soiled, why pretend to be clean at all? You might find Lebanon and the Palestinians in far worse shape if Israel was condemned to having eternally dirty hands no matter how they behave

Israel's unrestrained and,yes, savage bombing of civilians in Beirut provoked anguish all over the world. If they are fighting ther Hizbollah let them do it, but it is unacceptable to bomb civilian areas and then justify that atrocity by saying that militants are hiding there.

About the use of force by states, I am not in principled opposed to the use of force, but I do believe that force in statecrft should be propotionate, targetted and should serve a larger strategic goal.AS FAR AS lEBANON IS CONCERNED NONE OF THESE PRINCIPLES is met and hence my concern. I am disappointed that Condi Rice did not even make the polite inconsequential noies that one makes as a gesture to humnity.

When an Israeli soldier was kidnapped in Gaza Israel took action against Gaza and impacted the lives of a million people most of which had NOTHING to do with the kidnapping. Then two soldiers were taken along the Lebanon Israeli Border and Israel destroys major areas on Lebanon and endangers the new government. The response to the kidnappings was totally out of proportion to the incident. Now we have two major wars over the capture of three soldiers.

I have said more or less the same thing and I basically agree with the argument that Israel has strengthened the Hizbollah by its hamhanded and brutal airstrikes and has lost the sympathy it has gathered by the unilateral withdrawaL FROM wEST bANK, Gaza and in 2000 from Lebanon.

Bahu dwells here on Israel's past terrorist activities, which they have long since abandoned

Israel has been following a policy of targetted assasination of political leaders, violent repraissals against civilians and naked use of its air power against unarmed non combatants. All these aare tantamount to war crimes.

Just imagine if they put half the effort into building something for themselves instead of hating Israel for no real reason.

That is exactly what happened. The Palestenians build a 100m $ power plant and the Israeli jets sdestroy it. Isael is targetting civilians and that is unacceptable. The argument that those civilians suppot the terrorists as defined by Israel and therfore fairgame is only a prescription for genocide.

"but I do believe that force in statecrft should be propotionate, targetted and should serve a larger strategic goal.AS FAR AS lEBANON IS CONCERNED NONE OF THESE PRINCIPLES is met and hence my concern"


a day after criticizing Israel for “disproportionate” strikes against civilians, U.N. humanitarian chief Jan Egeland accused Hezbollah of “cowardly blending” among Lebanese civilians.

“Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children,” Egeland said.

That is exactly what happened. The Palestenians build a 100m $ power plant and the Israeli jets sdestroy it. Isael is targetting civilians and that is unacceptable. The argument that those civilians suppot the terrorists as defined by Israel and therfore fairgame is only a prescription for genocide.

You need to read some books on war. A powerplant is a "perfectly acceptable" military target. And blowing one up would "NOT" be considered a war crime. Maybe you should go read this Link
"before" you start condeming Israel.

Terrorists Open Fire on Memorial Ceremony (10.5.04) Palestinian terrorists, one of them apparently dressed as a woman, opened fire at hundreds of Jews who came to participate in a memorial ceremony for the Hatuel family in Gush Katif this evening. "Bullets whistled past our ears, and between our legs, and miraculously, no one was hurt," said Gaza Coast spokesman Eran Sternberg. IDF soldiers killed two of the attackers. In response to the attack, IDF bulldozers have, since this morning, been demolishing 13 houses owned by Arabs that have been used as cover for terrorist attacks along the Kisufim Route into Gush Katif. The residents have long demanded such an action, which was stopped by past Supreme Court rulings. "It was a humiliating experience for Jews who come to remember a slaughtered family to have to crouch and lie down while terrorists shoot wildly around," said David Hatuel afterward yesterday's attack. "Why can't the army protect a road just a few kilometers long? The houses that line the road must be torn down!" Hatuel lost his pregnant wife and their four daughters, aged 2-11, a week ago when Palestinian terrorists shot and killed them at point-blank range on the Kisufim entrance road to Gush Katif.

The issue is not if the power plant is a good target. The point is the impact this has on the how the people in Gaza and the people in Lebanon feel after the attacks are over. What Israel is doing is creating tons more enemies and so is the U. S. for not calling for an immediate cease fire and to stop providing Israel with the weapons they are using to destroy these two countries!

In the end, both Israel and the United States will be in more danger and the support by the people in the greater Middle-East for groups like Hezbollah and Hamas will be even stronger. How does Bush always wind up on the opposite side of the rest of the world?

The issue is not if the power plant is a good target. The point is the impact this has on the how the people in Gaza and the people in Lebanon feel after the attacks are over. What Israel is doing is creating tons more enemies and so is the U. S. for not calling for an immediate cease fire and to stop providing Israel with the weapons they are using to destroy these two countries!

What about the impact when terrorists blow up a bus? I see here that only col and bahu are defending the terrorists. How pathetic.

In the end, both Israel and the United States will be in more danger and the support by the people in the greater Middle-East for groups like Hezbollah and Hamas will be even stronger. How does Bush always wind up on the opposite side of the rest of the world?

This is so hillarious. So we shouldn't fight killers and terrorists because we might make someone "mad". You pepole are unreal. How is Bush on the opposite side of the world? Because he believes we should wipe out terrorists? Good for him. Only you liberals want to follow pathetic euro losers.