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Why an apology will not do
Published on September 24, 2006 By Bahu Virupaksha In Current Events
Even in the best of circumstances, Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict, is known as a tough and erudite theologian. Not withstanding his contropversial membership of the Hitler Youth during his early years, Ratzinger grew in stature during the heady days of the Vatical Council II which oversaw a few doctrinal and liturgical reforms. Pope Benedict has earned a reputation for himself as a conservative upholder of the rights and privileges of the Papcy in the manner of a medieval pope and therefore it is not surprsing that he made the outrageous remarks for which he has apologised not once but thrice in the last few days. Like the case of the Danish cartoons publised incidentally last September, the Pope's remarks have made a tense situation even worse. And he apologises after a fashion: I am sorry that you misunderstood my words etc etc.

The Byzantine monarch who was quoted by the Pope was engaged in a whole series of wars with the Turks in Anatolia in the thirteenth century a full century and a half before Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1453. And by appovingly quoting that medieval monarch who spewed out venom against Propher Mohammad, peace be on his name, Pope Benedict has shown not just lack of wisdom but worse an absolute ignorance of history. Even Edward Gibbon who published his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire in the eighteenth had a far deeper and in retrospect a richer academic understanding of Islam than this pope.

The unsophisticated and ignorant utterances of Pope Benedict has now ignited a flame that is spreading across the Islamic world. As it is the relationship between the Christian and Islamic worlds is full of problems and now the pope has stireed up the waters true and fast.

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on Sep 25, 2006
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on Sep 25, 2006
Lets face it, Islamists just like to riot and murder, and they will use any slight, real or imagined, as an attempt to justify the letting of blood. They would look a lot less ridiculous if they just admitted this already, declared war on everybody, and quit whining about the petty things and non-issues they use as 'reasons.'


First off.... Not *ALL* Islamists are like that. Come back and show me every muslim/islamists statement that they feel that way. Otherwise, you're just generalizing.

Secondly, he messed up, he apologized. Everyone needs to sweep it under the rug now. Move on. (Not all folks seem to want to do that, unfortunately.)

~S/P
on Sep 25, 2006
No shit, Lucas? Gee, thanks for straightening me out, but only a simpleton like yourself would require such disclaimers, such statements of the obvious.


You should be nicer - at least this time he actually has an opinion. It's a first as far as I can tell. The only thing to see whether he has actually changed is whether he defends it or just says 'Okay' like he used to do when challenged.

The pope's entitled to say whatever the hell he wants to say. No mistake was made on his part, his quote was accurate and well placed within the lecture itself, a lecture I'm sure you haven't read even though Simon generously linked it here.


I think I've made my dislike of the current pope plain a number of times, but I do think he had the right to say what he did. It wasn't particularly politic, but it was a clever move. Catholicism is losing ground to Islam in Africa and it's about time a Pope actually stood for something that's at all defensible (promoting condom-free sex and therefore AIDS hasn't exactly been a successful long-term policy move). I just wish he'd chosen an issue that I agreed with.

From where I stand Catholicism has, both historically and currently, had as little to do with reason as Islam has. It's just the nature of religions to be a little bit irrational.

The Muslim response, low-key and limited in violence to crazy areas only as it was, does seem to have been a little excessive in the violence and over-the-top in the rhetoric. If anyone should be able to say what they think it's the pope, because nothing a pope is ever going to say is going to be a surprise. Honestly I don't understand why media services insisted on kicking up such a big fuss - a Western pope declaring his support for his monotheistic faith and then backing it up with reference to the religions fairly impressive intellectual history? Egads!
on Sep 25, 2006
I guess that nun is a little easier to sweep under the rug now that she isn't kicking or begging for her life anymore, hey SilentSicky?

Maybe you'd be a lot easier to sweep under the rug after a few of the murderous bacteria plied their brand of "conversion" on you.
on Sep 25, 2006
Yea the religion of peace. The Pope quotes from a medival script how Islam is a religion of the sword, then from Islam comes this resounding chorus "We're going to kill you for that!". I guess they made that medival writers point. Greg.
on Sep 25, 2006
*shrugs*

Hey, just calling you on it. Glad to know you're not generalizing.

"He expressed no real opinion, cacto, merely waggled his finger at both sides of the issue. Bad pope! (he messed up.) Bad muslims! (sweep it under the rug and move on!) And I find it very difficult to summon up any niceness towards someone whose main point (only point, really) was that I failed to pepper my comment with enough disclaimers for the dense."

And that's not an opinion on the situation, how? Just because I don't say I support one side or the other does not mean that i have no opinion, that it was no opinion. As far as i am concerned, both sides messed up. The pope for not having enough foresight, and wisdom, in how the muslims would react. There have been plenty of examples of muslims blowing a thing out of proportion. The muslims, for well, taking this and running with it. For letting those who preach death and such, to stick around. As far as i am concerned, they need to do that. I still find Islam to be a religion of peace, like all religions. It's when you add humans into the algorithm, it gets fucked up.

I guess that nun is a little easier to sweep under the rug now that she isn't kicking or begging for her life anymore, hey SilentSicky?Maybe you'd be a lot easier to sweep under the rug after a few of the murderous bacteria plied their brand of "conversion" on you.


Gee, nice use of words. *rolls eyes* I'm not saying they are justified. Trust me, I'm not. I'm pointing the blame on those whom it belongs. At least, in my opinion.

That was Marcie who used to do that, not Lucas. Lucas goes into fits of rage, tells everyone to go fark themselves,(rather than defend his statements) and ends up grounded.


Ya, and you go into fits of acidic spewing. *shrugs* Everyone has their things. I'm not excusing what i used to do, if that's what you think.

You should be nicer - at least this time he actually has an opinion. It's a first as far as I can tell. The only thing to see whether he has actually changed is whether he defends it or just says 'Okay' like he used to do when challenged.


I've had opinions. I just didn't care to offer them, why...I don't know. *shrugs* I've offered mine on this one.



~S/P
on Sep 25, 2006
Gee, nice use of words. *rolls eyes* I'm not saying they are justified. Trust me, I'm not. I'm pointing the blame on those whom it belongs. At least, in my opinion.


Any blame you put on the pope in this is dead wrong. He did nothing wrong here at all.
on Sep 25, 2006
*shrugs*


*shrugs*


*shrugs*


You shrug too much more and you'll pop your head off, broham . . .

Not that many of us will mind.
on Sep 25, 2006
You should try VERY hard to live up to your newest moniker. Silence is golden, and in your particular case, would make you look like a genious.


  

I read that last line, and all I could think was that old song: "Silence is golden, golden . . ."
on Sep 25, 2006
Lucas...

If intellect were a fluid you wouldn't be able to muster enough from your own resources to drown a legless flea.

NO, Benedict has not apologized. What he's said is "I'm sorry y'all got your panties in a knot over what I said but hey - fuck you, buddy". Or words to that effect.

His intervention was a deliberate gambit in a game that he's played for awhile now: to re-establish and reinvigorate a debate between the two principal roots of European culture i.e. Greek philosophy (including its transformations up to and beyond Kant) and Catholic theology. Islam, in translating and making known certain documents that had been lost to Europe (especially the writings of Aristotle) had a role to play in that development - but was never a part of that development, following its own path, as Benedict pointed out through the 'bounded' and 'unbounded' concepts of God.

And he clearly considers, even in the Regensurg Address, that this 'unbounded' concept is at the heart of contemporary religious extremism. His intervention was deliberate, neither thoughtless nor accidental - and quite possibly designed to produce the reaction that the Muslims obliged him with, in order to reinforce his point that Islam and European culture are, if not yet outright and declared enemies, then fundamentally at odds with one another. And that this tension between them is something no amount of singing 'Kum Bay Yar' round international 'liberal' campfires will address.

As for the morality or otherwise of making the intervention in the first place... Anyone remotely familiar with the Papacy knows that, on the whole, the Popes have been ruthless politicians and highly effective secular princes. Popes may no longer command armies as they used to - but this Pope is no less an effective political operator than any of those who went before him. And no matter the language that's forced on him by our lily-livered times, he is no friend to Islam. Why should he be? He's the Pope.
on Sep 25, 2006

on Sep 25, 2006
Reply By: San Chonino


Ya, they wish. *rolls eyes*

So what exactly do you suggest, Lucas? That everyone in the entire world never, EVER breathe a word of criticism towards Islam ever again because, after all, we KNOW how them crazy Islamolooneys are going to react?


No, learn to know when to say something, and when not to. It's not rocket science, well, maybe to some. Just, you know, sometimes it is better to not say anything at all. I've learned that lesson. I don't see it applied very much in the world. I mean, shit, if someone out there, lets say...a liberal, says something -- then i'd hear folks saying, "Hey, he should've shut his mouth." (So on, and so forth...) Face it, it's true.

I suppose it's the Popes fault that nun was murdered, hmmm Lucas? After all...he should have known better, right?


No, I stated clearly, that his fault was not knowing when to say something and when not to say something. I *never* said he was the one that caused the deaths. The only folks who are responsible for the deaths, are the ones that carried them out. I.e. the murderers,etc...

If you are going to use fancy words, dearheart, it might be useful to learn their meaning first. Algorithms are created by humans, you dork. Perhaps you meant equasion? Who knows what you meant? Do you even know?al·go·rithm (lg-rthm) n. A step-by-step problem-solving procedure, especially an established, recursive computational procedure for solving a problem in a finite number of steps.The only person who "messed up" here is you, Lucas. You should try VERY hard to live up to your newest moniker. Silence is golden, and in your particular case, would make you look like a genious.


Figure of speech, nothing more. If you want to chatisize someone, then you might as well do the same to several instructors of mine...they've used the word in the same way. *shrugs* Your choice, you obviously understood what i meat.

Any blame you put on the pope in this is dead wrong. He did nothing wrong here at all.


Lets agree to disagree on this one, alright?

If intellect were a fluid you wouldn't be able to muster enough from your own resources to drown a legless flea.


Heh...well, that worked wonders. *rolls eyes* Ya know, it's not nice to insult, but hey...I can't stop you. So, insult me some more...I'm not going to bite the foot that kicks.

NO, Benedict has not apologized. What he's said is "I'm sorry y'all got your panties in a knot over what I said but hey - fuck you, buddy". Or words to that effect.


It was a half ass apology. At least he had enough guts to do something. Frankly, I was suprised he did so. I wouldve expected less from him. I assumed he would stand on his soap box flaunting. Which is, in a way, what he did.

The point i am trying to make, is that he could've not said that. he could've used a different way. Why be blunt, when you can be gentle and just, if not more effective.

Again, I don't condone the reaction. Any of the killings, etc...


Reply By: jennifer1


Yes?


~S/P
on Sep 25, 2006
As I said, Lucas, you really are not the brightest bulb in the box...

It was a half ass apology. At least he had enough guts to do something. Frankly, I was suprised he did so. I wouldve expected less from him.


It was not any kind of apology. It was, and is, a rhetorical device designed to appease so-called 'liberal' critics who wish us all to hold hands and be nice to each other.

Cardinal Ratzinger, as he once was, is not a nice man. He is an intellectual first, a Catholic second, and Pope third. And in every incarnation he seems to me to be a man commited to the values of Old Europe, and a man willing to go to war in defence of those values, whether the war be ideological or concretely military in nature.

The Germans are not the French, and Benedict is defiantly German. You need, as many in America need, to remember what Caesar had to say of the Germans. They are either at your feet or at your throat, and this Pope has no fondness for being on his knees.

Benedict is currently engaged in an ideological war that he intends to win. Bloodshed, while always regretable, is a necessary concommitant of that war.

Benedict has no intention of making peace with Islam. And only an overly-emotional, politically deluded fool such as yourself, would imagine that Benedict's conscience is in any way troubled by the fallout from his speeches.

He is far more interesting, as a Pope, than his predecessor, and far more politically aware and committed. A politics such as his I could support, even without having any inclination to fall in line with his religion.
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