<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" version="2.0"><channel><title>Statecraft and Wordcraft Comments - Brought to you by JoeUser</title><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/rss/comments</link><copyright>© 2006 - 2008 Stardock Corporation. All rights reserved.</copyright><description>This blog explores the contemporary political and cultural trends from a distinct perspective</description><language>en-us</language><pubDate>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDate><lastBuildDate>2008-07-25T15:19:13</lastBuildDate><docs>http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html</docs><generator>Stardock Rss Generator v1.0, Andrew Powell</generator><managingEditor>info@stardock.com</managingEditor><webMaster>apowell@stardock.com</webMaster><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote"><br/>it would be wiser for Palestinians to try to work with her toward finding a way to live together<br/></div><br/><br/>Palestinian Arabs have found such a way. Israeli Arabs do live in peace with Israeli Jews. Arab clans in Hevron have come to an arrangement with the settlers (since both sides hated the PLO). Arabs in Gaza have been interviewed and some (older men) have said they wanted the occupation back rather than live under Hamas.<br/><br/>The problem is people like Bahu and others who want to interfere and turn the clock back and restart the war Israel won.<br/><br/>They really do believe that a world without Zionism means peace. And they are right. But such a world is also a world without Jews in the middle east just as a world where nobody opposed Hitler is a world without Jews in Europe. There would be peace, but there would also be millions dead.<br/><br/>You can always have peace if you give the violent people what they want; EVERYTHING they want. The violent people want peace. They just don't want it before the others are dead.<br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Sodaiho</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[I do not see the possibility of a single state other than the State of Israel as it is. Rather than trying to destroy Israel, perhaps it would be wiser for Palestinians to try to work with her toward finding a way to live together. Both sides need to find ways to resolve their conflicts non-violently.<br/><br/>Shalom.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Sodaiho on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Why does the dream of us all living together never include live Jews???</div><br/><br/>It is not Jews per se.  It is rational people.  You cannot reason with irrational people, so they always put the onus on the rational ones "Why dont you....".<br/><br/>They do it to the US and other peace loving nations because they are peace loving, and eventually some gullible sap is going to take up the mantra.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote"><br/>I think Leauki has stated the important parts.<br/></div><br/><br/>I wonder why none of the "let's all live together" types ever call on the Arabs to modify their stance on the "Jewish question".<br/><br/>Why does the dream of us all living together never include live Jews???<br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[Interesting comments.  I wish I had more to add, but I think Leauki has stated the important parts.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[I refuse to die voluntarily even if it is the "obvious solution".<br/><br/>Deal with it and include it in any peace plan.<br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote"><br/>When History clashes with personal biography we sometimes feel diffident.<br/></div><br/><br/>History didn't clash with personal biography. My experience was EXACTLY what Arab leaders had announced in the 1930s and 1940s.<br/><br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>My concwern is only to show that the two state solution may not be viable and there is need for fresh thinking on the subject<br/></div><br/><br/>Your "fresh thinking" has already been thought of. But after numerous attacks and threats against the Jewish population of "Palestine", the League of Nations and later the UN luckily decided against it.<br/><br/>Your idea is not new, it has merely been shown not to work.<br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>though I do understand that there are deep scars on both sides to heal.<br/></div><br/><br/>The difference is that some scars are caused by Arab and German attempts to eradicate the Jews while other scars are caused by Jewish refusal to die.<br/><br/>Your attempt to make these sound morally equivalent are part of the problem.<br/><br/>What we need is for the Arabs to face their history and come to the conclusion that it was WRONG to try to exterminate middle-eastern Jews, not for Jews to apologise for something they never did and never tried to do.<br/><br/>What you are proposing as a "fresh idea" is simply a Holocaust. And I thought the world was sick of it.<br/><br/>How can you propose that two peoples live together when one of them still wants to destroy the other???<br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</comments><description><![CDATA[<p><div class="Article_Quote"></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">The Ashkenazi elite from eastern
Europe and Poland that is essentially the ruling aristocracy of Israel
has dominated the politics of Israel since 1949 and given its long
association with Zionism is unlikely to support the obvious soulution
to the problem: A single Palestinian and Israeli state.</span></p>
<p></div></p>
<p>That's one way of putting it.</p>
<p>Of course, given the extreme hostility of many Arabs towards any minority and especially Jews; given that non-Arab minorities in Arab countries have been persecuted, discriminated against, and gassed in the last century; and given that most Arab countries have murdered and expelled their original Jewish minority populations any solution that would hand over the remaining middle-eastern Jews to those same Arab nationalists might indeed find little support among the Jewish elite.</p>
<p>The leader of the Arabs in "Palestine" (or southern Syria, as he saw it), Muhammed al-Husayni said in 1944, in Berlin:</p>
<p><div class="Article_Quote"></p>
<p>"Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."<br /></div></p>
<p><br />After both wars he wrote in his memoirs:</p>
<p><div class="Article_Quote"></p>
<p>"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours'."</p>
<p></div></p>
<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni</p>
<p>So, yes, I agree with you. The reason there is a conflict in Israel between Jews and Arabs, actually in the entire Arab world between Arabs and all minorities but specifically Arabs and Jews, is the refusal of the Ashkenazi Jewish elite to support the obvious solution.</p>
<p>I am fully confident that if the Jewish elite had supported the obvious solution, the conflict would be over by now, and "Palestine" would be as Jew-free as the rest of the Arab world (sans Morocco). And there would be no conflict and we would have perfect peace in "Palestine" (except for the odd major war between Islamic fundamentalists and Arab nationalists and the like).</p>
<p>Note that al-Husayni is still revered by the PLO. Yasser Arafat (al-Husayni's nephew) called him his mentor and the father of the "Palestinian" people.</p>
<p>So how do we convince Israel's current elite (which includes Jews that fled Arab countries) to support the "obvious solution"?</p>
<p>After 6 million died in the Holocaust perpetrated by the Arabs' German friends and several Arab attempts to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews and millions of Jews expelled from all Arab countries (except Morocco), an "obvious solution" that depends entirely on the good-will of those same people seems a bit problematic to me.</p>
<p>I can tell you that I won't support the "obvious solution"; although when Hassan Nasrallah called on all the Jews in the world to assemble in northern Israel so he could kill them all, I did go to northern Israel and had I not been evacuated, the "obvious solution" would have allowed me to find peace.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/319117</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on The Israeli-Palestine Question</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Well, I meant here on JU.</div><br/><br/>Oh, gotcha.  Yea, if I had had the time, I would have written something.  These 15 hour days are murder tho.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on THe Childhood home of George Washington Discovered in Virginia</title></item><item><author>CharlesCS</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Charles, it is all over the news here (but then this is Virginia and they like to "preserve" everything).</div><br/><br/>Well, I meant here on JU.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>CharlesCS on THe Childhood home of George Washington Discovered in Virginia</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</comments><description><![CDATA[Charles, it is all over the news here (but then this is Virginia and they like to "preserve" everything).<br/><br/>But Bahu, wrong category.  The US Civil war was 1861-1865.  Washington was dead over 60 years when it was fought.  He was the leader during the Revolutionary War (or the war of insurrection as the English call it).]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on THe Childhood home of George Washington Discovered in Virginia</title></item><item><author>CharlesCS</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</comments><description><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article. What a great discovery. But strange that it was someone from outside the US who writes an article about this. Thanks Bahu.</p>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>CharlesCS on THe Childhood home of George Washington Discovered in Virginia</title></item><item><author>KellyW0498</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</comments><description><![CDATA[<p>I love this kind of stuff.</p>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/317128</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>KellyW0498 on THe Childhood home of George Washington Discovered in Virginia</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Its' the pro israel lobby we are talking about so their influence is derived from the reality of Israel being such a good ally.</div><br/><br/>What came first, the chicken or the egg?<br/><br/>I tend to think that the lobby is there to keep America from abandoning them.  Now that gets into an interesting area.  As the republicans are naturally pro Israel (call it America Centric and all), the lobby has little effect.  As democrats tend to be less so, they must exert greater influence on them to achieve the same ends.<br/><br/>If we are both going to the same place, does that mean one of us has to be following the other?  or just that we both arrive at the same place, independent of how we got there?]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Smoothseas</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">agree and that is probably a greater influence than a lobby</div><br/><br/>Its' the pro israel lobby we are talking about so their influence is derived from the reality of Israel being such a good ally. ]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Smoothseas on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Israel is certainly one our best allies in the region if not the best. That is very hard to argue against, and that situation alone creates a lot of influence.</div><br/><br/>I agree and that is probably a greater influence than a lobby.  One tends to treat friends better than enemies.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Smoothseas</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Sounds like someone with an agenda against the lobby is trying to convince others of their paranoia.</div><br/><br/>Which is fine. There is nothing wrong with opinion pieces. My opinions are based on looking at the opinions of both sides of an issue. The problem is when someone is so one sided that they can't see through the propaganda and look at what is really happening. Israel is certainly one our best allies in the region if not the best. That is very hard to argue against, and that situation alone creates a lot of influence.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Smoothseas on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">How about an old article from the Fox "Think Tank" about the issue. Looks like you have misspoken. I can find plenty of information from a wide variety of sources partisan and bipartisan. They bring plenty to the table particularly in an era of the swing state and close elections.</div><br/><br/>Pretty good opinion piece.  Sounds like someone with an agenda against the lobby is trying to convince others of their paranoia.  However, it would be hard to call an opinion piece conclusive evidence.  I stand by my opinion.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Smoothseas</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">To be influential, you have to bring something to the table. Sadly, the Jewish (or pro-Israeli) lobbies bring nothing to the republicans. You dont get if you do not give.</div><br/><br/>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53785,00.html<br/><br/>How about an old article from the Fox "Think Tank" about the issue. Looks like you have misspoken. I can find plenty of information from a wide variety of sources partisan and bipartisan. They bring plenty to the table particularly in an era of the swing state and close elections.<br/><br/><br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Smoothseas on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Smoothseas<div class="Article_Quote">There are republican as well as as democratic Jewish lobby groups. Or maybe better stated as Pro-Israeli lobbies. So if u were say running in the GOP primary and the Pro-Israeli lobby didn't like your position they would certainly do something about it.</div><br/><br/>There are probably democrat and republican KKK lobbies as well - but hardly influential.  To be influential, you have to bring something to the table.  Sadly, the Jewish (or pro-Israeli) lobbies bring nothing to the republicans.  You dont get if you do not give.<br/><br/>Bahu <div class="Article_Quote">The Palestenians are not an "imagined community":they exist and have right to a collective existence as envisaged by the 2 state solution to which YSA at least nominally adheres. The withdrawal from the West Bank that you allude to, perhaps, is not giving. The Intifada left Israel with few options.</div><br/><br/>I did not call them "imagined" nor deny their existance.  Yet you and others want Israel to "give".  I merely pointed out 2 things:<br/>1. They have given<br/>2. The palestinians have not.<br/>So show me the error of both statements.  Simply put, that is the big sticking point in your argument, since you cannot.<br/><br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[wow, something interesting. <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Cool.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle"> I'm cheering for Smoothseas, lol.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Smoothseas</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[There are republican as well as as democratic Jewish lobby groups. Or maybe better stated as Pro-Israeli lobbies. So if u were say running in the GOP primary and the Pro-Israeli lobby didn't like your position they would certainly do something about it.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Smoothseas on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">The biggest problem is the American Jewish Lobby. No politician can win without their support.</div><br/><br/>That is not true.  Perhaps you would need to qualify that as "No democrat" as like many other interest groups, they seem to have lost a lot of objectivity in their quest for power and aligned themselves with one party.  When was the last time a republican running for president got the endorsement of any major jewish lobby group?]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Who lived on that land before the arrival of the European jews?</div><br/><br/>Mid Eastern Jews and nomads, along with arabs.  Obviously the term Palestinian is a coined one to designate anyone living in the area.  While there were some monolithic blocks, they are not the "insurgents" of today.<br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote">You say Israel has give a lot. I am afraid that this is not true.</div><br/><br/>A lot is a subjective term.  Put it this way.  What has Israel given versus the Palestinians?  In comparison, the term is no longer subjective but objective.  The only side that has given is the Israelis.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Smoothseas</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[The biggest problem is the American Jewish Lobby. No politician can win without their support. So even though U.S. Foreign policy as written says no more settlements, the Jewish lobby has actually supported many groups that have funded the establishments of some of the settlements. It was no coincidence that Hillary waited 2 days to declare Obama the winner of the primary at the AIPAC Conference. But Obama's position is no carte blanche for Israel. He said Jerusalem should not be split, but the settlements will be the trade off.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Smoothseas on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">But shouls Israel agree to sincere negotiations and a drawback to the 1967 borders then may be a beginning can be made.</div><br/><br/>With the exception of Jeruselem, the 1967 borders are a non issue as they do not impact the paleastinians at all.  That is a red herring used to excuse the fact that Israel has given a lot, the palestinians have not given at all.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Good Night and Peace Out.</div><br/><br/>Have a restful one!  Peace out.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[ah, its 12:03 AM here. I'd have to say good night. But reading some news and "all that stuff." Some of these things say that Israel gets a large chunk of US Foreign Aid today. Uh, sorry its late so I can't give sites and sources. Ah well, think I'll end it before I break down. Good Night and Peace Out.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">From what I feel, Israel also gets more than what the Palestinians gets to jump start as a country.</div><br/><br/>They got more?  or had more?  In other words, in 1948, they were all in basically the same boat.  one built. The other did not.  Perhaps it was a state of mind and not material things.  I think Israel has a lot more today, but that was not the case 60 years ago.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Last I checked anything about Palestine, weren't there some sort of sanctions placed upon them? If true, wouldn't that add more difficulty to the process of growth? From what I feel, Israel also gets more than what the Palestinians gets to jump start as a country. (No, this view is not a conspiracy theory.)]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">What you call "laziness" could well be the apathy engendered by an overwhelmning sense of gloom born of a deep rooted sense of wasted life.</div><br/><br/>Say that 3 times fast! <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Wink.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle"><br/><br/>Yes it very well could be, and I think I like your term better.  At least the Apathy part.  But again, even if it was "3 generations", it was not at the beginning.  It could be a mindset (much as the mind set of latin american country citizens about social classes).  If they have always been apathetic, and show no sign of changing that, then there is nothing that anyone can do about it.  Again, they must do it, no one can do it for them.  Instead, they play the victim and get a lot of pity.  But that does not feed the children or create a thriving society.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote"> Three generations in a refugee camp is a life that does not make for a happy existence.</div><br/><br/> <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Gasp.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle">  <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Gasp.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle"> Wholly OMG, Ok I will now back from this since I don't really know anything about that. I don't think I saw anything about refugee camps. May I ask for more information about this?  ]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Ah well, I would still give em 10 year. Why 10 years? I am overly optimistic that things in Iran and Syria will settle or fry which will hopefully die down the fighting, slowing the funds. Ah, I think I see a flaw in my predictions but can't figure where it is at the moment. The cursed nights are back!  <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Ew.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle">   <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Laugh.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle"> <br/>-=What factions are fighting in Palestine at the moment? Any connections with the countries I mentioned above?=- ]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Alright, I apologize if I made it sound like an accusation. I see how you view the situation, but from the last news I saw, aren't there also different types of groups trying to take power? If thats true, I think that it could be something that could make forming a government much harder. Oh, and good morning from S.E.A.</div><br/><br/>Good morning as well!  And you have a very valid point.  It is unfortunate that the society of Palestinians is hampered by the meglomania of some.  That does temper my statements and opinions as while I still think the issue of "laziness" plays a part it is not the entire reason they have not been able to progress.  Yet all societies have their prima donnas.  Most at least marginalize them to have little or no effect.  Palestinians do not seem inclined to marginalize theirs in order to move forward.<br/><br/>And I should clairify that when I say "lazy" I am not talking about Individual one or two.  Just the society as a whole.  Individual results may vary.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Alright, I apologize if I made it sound like an accusation. I see how you view the situation, but from the last news I saw, aren't there also different types of groups trying to take power? If thats true, I think that it could be something that could make forming a government much harder. Oh, and good morning from S.E.A.   <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Cool.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle"> <br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Yo? I said that i was on no one's side and don't give a rats ass about the situations because its just not worth my time to research on my own. From what you wrote, you are calling all of the Palestinians lazy</div><br/><br/>YOu also missed the punctuation apparently.  I was not asking you to do anything.  I was merely trying to explain that in my opinion they are lazy in not creating a government (not that they may or may not be lazy about taking our trash, doing dishes, etc.).  My questions were rhetorical (that sometimes is not apparent with the written word).<br/><br/>YOu asked me to back up my opinion.  I stated some of the sources for it.  But I am not going to go the route of "until you have walked a mile....." crap.  A fellow student in high school tried that crap on me when I condemned drug use (this was the hippy era if that gives you an idea).  I will tell you what I told her then: "I have not tried arsenic and do not intend to, so are you saying I cannot call it a poison?"<br/><br/>The same thing here.  I dont have to live among them to know that life is not fair.  And life is very hard - more so if you are lazy or stupid.  We have only to look at how others have dealt with adversity and risen above it.  And we do not have to look far.  In 1948, the Palestinians and Israelis were in about the same boat (that is history, so yea, that is a fact).  Look at where they are now?  it does not take a genius to figure out that one group of people had a dream and busted their butts to achieve it.  The other just played the victim - and never achieved much of anything.<br/><br/>Dont be so sensitive.  I understand you dont have a side.  And you were just questioning (albeit somewhat accusingly - but no skin off my nose) my position.  That is why I said "opinion" several times.  OPinion does not have to be based on anything (that is usually called bias), but having it based on facts helps.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Yo? I said that i was on no one's side and don't give a rats ass about the situations because its just not worth my time to research on my own. From what you wrote, you are calling all of the Palestinians lazy. I'm just saying it as I see it,= Terrorist terrorizing the population if they ever do get to negotiating with Israel. Without peace and being a country that from what I've found has had sanctions placed upon them, I'd say that would be damn hard to stabilize things around oh and don't forget about the terrorists running around recruiting the young  <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Mad.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle"> . I will read and take in the things said, but its just not worth the effort that would go into arguing, everyone will defend their opinion and it would become an endless loop from looking around these forums. Until something happens to my own country then I Do Not care. Hehe, I seriously sound VERY EVIL. But its night-time from where I am, i just got back from my job, and am very tired. ~_~ sleepy as hell and going to refresh my brain before i say anymore so i don't make an ass out of myself. So i say good night from S.E.A.<br/>(And i don't care if i made an ass out of myself already. lol) -Aw damnit]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Dr Guy, Do you have Interviews, Videos, of the Palestinian people? Have you met any of them or even better, been there? I'm not on any side cos it doesn't concern my country but from reading what you've wrote, its really annoying to see someone calling Palestinians lazy when they haven't lived they way Palestinians lived. I would really be interested to read anything to back what you have wrote.</div><br/><br/>Facts?  Sure.  Show me the articles of Governance for the Palestinian nation.<br/><br/>You cant?  Not surprising.  There are none.<br/><br/>Lazy?  I make no bones about saying that is my opinion.  Lazy is after all a subjective term, not objective.  Have I lived there?  No, have you?  Have I talked to any?  Sure have. have you?<br/><br/>YOu can go around and proclaim that Americans are ugly, arrogant and self centered.  I will argue with you on all points.  And I am sure you can find individuals to back up your opinion, just as I can find ones to negate your opinion.  But note the common word there. Opinion.  If you want to believe that of Americans, that is your opinion, not facts.  Just as mine are stated here.  I stated facts when discussing facts - the Balfour Declaration.  My opinion of the palestinians (and I use the term lazy in the context of not creating a government - not in all their daily activities) is based upon observable facts.  Do you wish to contest those facts?  or just my opinion?  If the latter, go for it.  We will only agree to not agree.  If the former, please show me the error of my ways.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Dr Guy, Do you have Interviews, Videos, of the Palestinian people? Have you met any of them or even better, been there? I'm not on any side cos it doesn't concern my country but from reading what you've wrote, its really annoying to see someone calling Palestinians lazy when they haven't lived they way Palestinians lived. I would really be interested to read anything to back what you have wrote.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">There are factors that one has to consider while dealing with Israel,Palestine and the Middle East in general. You cannot wish away history just because it is inconvinient. Palestine formed part of themandated territories as per the Balfour Declaration and it is well to remember that the "stuffed shirt brits" were not interested in the Palestenians as such.</div><br/><br/>Back when the Balfour declaration was written (it was not a law, mandate, or treaty, just a thesis paper), the Brits thought they were gods, and NO ONE was worthy of their attention.  Yet look at all the other British "colonies" of yore?  While not all are models of greatness, almost all are doing a hell of a lot better than the palestinians.<br/><br/>You keep throwing up red herrings to excuse the laziness of the palestinians.  And every excuse is show down with a simple comparison.  The Palestinians have had a lot of time, and resources (not an overabundance of them, but sufficient) to create a country.  They have not.  They have not even started the process of doing anything other than legitimizing their war lords.  Think Afghanistan post British rule (the other failure of a former colony).]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">The Balfour Declaration</div><br/><br/>First, that is a common myth.  The declaration has nothing to do with Palestinians creating a country.  I have read it.  it is only some stuffed shirt brit pontificating on the issue - 100 years ago!<br/><br/>Damn man!  How long are they going to use some nobody's opinion (which did not specifically count out ANYTHING) as justification for them doing nothing?<br/><br/>You just proved my point.  They are not interested in creating a society, just finding whatever excuse they can come up with not to do a damn thing.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>timothy_sfker</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Poor form Leauki. Many insults have been hurled to the arab people this thread, and noone has accused anyone of being racist against Arabs. But when Scot made a statement regarding the actions of a STATE (not the people), you use a word that'll only stifle intellectual debate and cause division and anger on both sides to surface.<br/><br/>At any rate, it reminds me of when the war in Iraq was still popular. If anyone criticised it, the 'patriots' would say something like "stop supporting terrorism and start supporting our troops". Nationalism can have a very ugly side, and this thread has confirmed that in more ways than one.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>timothy_sfker on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>killa_chain</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Interesting how the word Anti-Semitic is used all the time to describe someone thats trying to explain about Israel and Palestine, its almost like an excuse. Gets annoying when you don't see it coming.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>killa_chain on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Scotteh</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<p>I've read your post Leauki, i've no time to reply to all of it but i promise after the weekend i will, but please allow me to make one comment on your closing paragraph(s).</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Why is my statement anti-Semitic? Anti-Semitic would suggest that i dislike Jewish people, would it not? Let's say i am wrong, and that you are right. Why would my misinterpritation of events make me dislike people of a certain faith?</p>
<p>How dare you insult me in such a way, it's like saying i'm a racist because i didn't fully understand the issues surrounding the abbolition of slavery.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Scotteh on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote"><br/>Kaliningrad was captured by the russians during world war 2 was it not? Shall we class that as an illegal war?  I'll take your point however.<br/></div><br/><br/>What's an illegal war? Germany attacked its neighbours and was defeated.<br/><br/>The Arabs attacked Israel and were defeated.<br/><br/>There is nothing illegal about defeating the attacker.<br/><br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>Well the UN didn't single out Israel, they've made requests to the likes of Iraq (for their invasion of Kuwait), Sudan (for their invasion of Darfur),   It's just that these countries didn't have a hugely succesful lobby in America that allowed it to get away with clearly disregarding the UN.<br/></div><br/><br/>Kuwait didn't attack Iraq. I am all for annexations resulting from attacking another country for no reason other than greed being illegal.<br/><br/>I am talking about annexations in lieu of reparations, annexations done by the attacked and winning party.<br/><br/>Maybe you misunderstood me. I am all for Russia and Poland keeping parts of Germany even though they won them in a war. And with the same passion I am for Israel keeping East-Jerusalem and Golan.<br/><br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>Either way, to put into context what is happening, let's say Britain and France went to war tomorrow. In a conflict lasting six days, the French forces were pushed out of Normandy before finally suing for peace.<br/></div><br/><br/>Ok, good example. So the French decided to attack Britain and exterminate the English. Plus they wanted to make Britain a part of France (or replace it with another French country).<br/><br/>This war follows, of course, two decades of France trying to destroy Britain. Also all ethnic English have been expelled from Europe and settled in England. (Plus, in an earlier war between the two, ethnic Normans in England tried to slaughter their fellow British and then fled to France.)<br/><br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>British forces remained in Normandy, which you know isn't all that unuasal after winning a conflict. Then the French went to the UN asking for Normandy back, and the UN agreed with them.<br/></div><br/><br/>You see, and that's the part I don't see. Germany didn't get Pommerania back after the war. That's simply not how it's done.<br/><br/>What you are looking for is a way to give an aggressive country no reason to avoid war.<br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>Which in some respects may not of been the right thing to do, whats to say that after giving Normandy back the French just wouldn't have another pop at us? Regardless the UN has voted, it is the closest thing we have to a global democracy (which i think can only be considered a good thing) and as such should be adhered to.<br/></div><br/><br/>Democracy without a constitution is not a "good thing" and never has been.<br/><br/>What you are talking about is not "democracy" in the sense that we know it but simply a vehicle for anti-Semitism. The UN, with votes per country, will ALWAYS vote against Israel in those situations. What's the point of having the Arabs attack Israel and lose and then ask the Arabs (who have more votes than Israel) whether they should be given back what they lost?<br/><br/>That's like having Germany and Austria attack Poland every now and then and lose (hopefully) and then demand, with two votes against one, that Poland pay reparations.<br/><br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>Britain at this point refuses, and maintains an occupation of Normandy against the will of the French people living there, and the French people in the surrounding area, The French government, the UN and international opinion (whatever good that is).<br/></div><br/><br/>Perhaps it protects Britain from another French attack?<br/><br/>What if Britain offered to give Normandy back to France in exchange for peace (like Israel did with the territories and Gaza in 1967) and the French refused?<br/><br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>The British then start moving British citizens across onto Main land Europe and settling in Normandy, more importantly removing French families from their homes, bulldozing them and then building a new house on top of it for the new British settlers (All this in the areas with good access to water and other rich resources).<br/></div><br/><br/>That's what the French wanted to do to the British. I can see how they would hate that.<br/><br/>However, the settlers in the territories were not "moved" there by Israel and (in most cases) build settlements on land that was Jewish before 1948.<br/><br/>You might be surprised to learn that Poles live in Pommerania.<br/><br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>Leauki may contest the issue of bulldozing, as he has previously with me. I've not been to Israel, nor the Gaza strip or the West Bank. I've only information i've obtained from journalists and members of organistations such as the UN.<br/></div><br/><br/>Actually, neither journalists nor the UN made that claim; not that I could find, anyway. My contesting the issue was with YOU making the claim, while the BBC (and the UN as far as I could see) didn't even go that far.<br/><br/>I remember when I asked you for a source, you came up with a BBC article describing the destruction of a police station in Jenin during the war. (I assume we can both agree that the grounds of a former police station in the middle of a hostile city is not a prime location for a "settlement".)<br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>I spoke to my fathers friend, an expert in peace negotiation for the UN from Northern Ireland. He was in Ramalla and witnessed a Palastinian home having it's occupance evicted and finally bull dozed. Several days later work began on brining in mobile homes for a new Israeli settlement. I believe this happened fairly recently.<br/></div><br/><br/>Actually, the Jewish settlement is next to Ramalla, not in Ramalla. What your father's friend saw was very likely the destruction of a home by the police or army. THAT HAPPENS, especially when the house harboured terrorists or was a weapons depot.<br/><br/>It is unlikely that mobile homes would be moved into that same position afterwards, for the simple reasons that there is no benefit in doing so, not even for the greediest and evilest of Zionists.<br/><br/>There are perfectly nice spots to settle that are not located in the most hostile city of the West Bank.<br/><br/>If the "expert" connected the dots in such a way, it suggests to me that he made a colossal mistake that will probably cost lives when it is sold as fact.<br/><br/>Point is, if you claim that Israel (not settlers, but the Israeli government) practice ethnic cleansing, you better have evidence; not a story of a friend of a friend that can mean lots of things, but actual evidence.<br/><br/><div class="Article_Quote"><br/>but the more i find out about it, the more i can in the very least understand their contempt for their Israeli neighbours.<br/></div><br/><br/>Can you find out about my contempt for anti-Semitic lies and the people who propagate them?<br/><br/>When you say "find out about it", better make it "hear stories". You didn't "find out" anything. You read a story of a police station destroyed by a bull dozer and jumped to ethnic cleansing from there.<br/><br/>Yes, I can understand Arab contempt for Israel too. Some simply hate Jews and have hated them before Israel had the power to do anything to anybody. And others, most others I would think, just happen to be fed stories as facts because somebody thinks that hearing a story means "finding out".<br/><br/><br/>From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni):<br/><br/>"Back in the summer of 1940 and again in February 1941, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government a draft declaration of German-Arab cooperation, containing a clause:<br/><br/>Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of The Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy"<br/><br/><br/>You still think this has anything to do with Israel bulldozing people's homes?<br/><br/>I want to be honest with you. It's your statement, in the other discussion, I think it was yours:<br/><br/>"Well quite simply because if a foreign government came into my town, bulldozed some buildings and built a settlement I'd be sure as hell willing to fight to take it back."<br/><br/>That statement was probably the most disgusting and anti-Semitic statement I have read in a long time. Most supporters of the "Palestinian cause" (the one launched by the Grand Mufti or the reaction to Israel's reaction) tend to be less direct.<br/><br/>After DECADES of Arabs trying to exterminate the Jews, YOU are finally telling me that this is about "fighting to take it back", that the Arabs are simply defending their homes against destruction?<br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Ask yourself this, if the French in occupied Normandy opted to rebel in this enviroment, would you consider them lazy Dr Guy?</div><br/><br/>Several problems with your analogy.  First, palestinians has not created a country.  So comparing that to Alsace-Lorraine (a much better comparison IMHO) does not fly.<br/><br/>Second, the Palestinians are not up in arms in the Golan Heights or the Lebanese occupied areas.  Because they are not there!  They never were part of the "Palestine Homeland" to begin with.  Gaza and the west bank are, and if they ever decided to become self autonomous, I am sure that at the very least, the US would force Israel (if Israel did not willingly do so) to negotiate with them for peace and trade.  Yet they refuse to do so (hence where the laziness comes in).  Even the French, notorious for their laziness, created a government!<br/><br/>The Palestinians are not trying to provide for their people.  They are not trying to build a nation.  They are just tryuing to kill (this is not saying all Palestinians, but in general it is true).  They are not "doing" anything.  They are "blaming" everything on Israel.  Regardless, until they actually try to be constructive, they are doomed to failure.  And because they are accepting no responsibility, they are playing the victim.  Not a real victim, just a play one (hence playing).<br/><br/>Laziness is not just a state of idleness.  It is also a state of mind.  And to answer your question, yes they are being lazy.  Running a country is not easy.  They have no intention of doing it.  They are being lazy.<br/><br/>But to throw it back on you for a moment.  Do you believe for one instant that if they were to erradicate Israel, that a grand and glorious nation of Palestine would suddenly spring forth?<br/><br/>We do not even have to guess at the answer.  We already say it.  Al Fatah and Hamas.  Yea, that was very constructive.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Scotteh</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<p>Kaliningrad was captured by the russians during world war 2 was it not? Shall we class that as an illega war? <img src="http://images.stardock.com/smiles/Yum.gif" border=0 align="absmiddle"> I'll take your point however.</p>
<p>Well the UN didn't single out Israel, they've&nbsp;made&nbsp;requests to the likes of&nbsp;Iraq (for their invasion of Kuwait), Sudan (for their invasion of Darfur), &nbsp;&nbsp;It's just that these countries didn't have a hugely succesful lobby in America that allowed it to get away with&nbsp;clearly disregarding the UN.</p>
<p>Either way, to put into context what is happening, let's say Britain and France went to war tomorrow.&nbsp;In a conflict lasting six days, the French forces were pushed out of Normandy before finally sueing for peace.</p>
<p>British forces remainded in Normandy, which you know isn't all that unusal after winning a conflict. Then the French went to the UN asking for Normandy back, and the UN agreed with them. Which in some respects may not of been the right thing to do, whats to say that after giving Normandy back the French just wouldn't have another pop at us? Regardless the UN has voted, it is the closest thing we have to a global democarcy (which i think can only be considered a good thing) and as such should be adhered to.</p>
<p>Britain at this point refuses, and maintains an occupation of Normandy against the will of the French people living there, and the French people in the surrounding area, The French goverment, the UN and international opinion (whatever good that is).</p>
<p>The British then start moving British citizens across onto Main land Europe and settling in Normandy, more importantly removing French families from their homes, bulldozing them and then building a new house on top of it for the new British settlers (All this in the areas with good access to water and other rich resources).</p>
<p>Ask yourself this, if the French in occupied Normandy opted to rebel in this enviroment, would you consider them lazy Dr Guy?</p>
<p>Leauki may contest the issue of bulldozing, as he has previously with me. I've not been to Israel, nor the Gaza strip or the West Bank. I've only information i've obtained from journalists and members of organistations such as the UN.</p>
<p>I spoke to my fathers friend, an expert in peace negotiation for the UN from Northern Ireland. He was in Ramalla and witnessed a Palastinian home having it's occupance evicted and finally bull dozed. Several days later work began on brining in mobile homes for a new Israeli settlement. I believe this happend fairly recently.</p>
<p>The Arabs are not blameless in the history of this conflict, but the more i find out about it, the more i can in the very least understand their contempt for their Israeli neighbours.</p>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Scotteh on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[Dr Guy,<br/><br/>You know I was in Haifa during the Lebanon war. While pundits in Europe and America accused Israel of targeting civilians, I saw both the rockets sent by Hizbullah (they were shot into cities and my university and filled with metal parts that would kill people but not harm buildings much) and the flyers dropped by Israel in Lebanon (that warned the Lebanese that bombing raid would follow the next day, in English and Arabic, and would they please leave the area before then).<br/><br/>Incidentally, while Israel did evacuate the north, despite not being warned by Hizbullah (instead Hizbullah called on all the Jews in the world to come to northern Israel to die), Lebanon did not evacuate the south, despite being asked to do so by Israel before the raids.<br/><br/>The resulting fewer deaths in Israel were then attributed to excessive violence on Israel's side, NOT the fact that Israel moved her civilians to the south and away from the front.<br/><br/>I have seen, with my own eyes (I was an evacuee), what transpired.<br/><br/>And while I was in Jerusalem, away from the danger, I could watch the news and find out that the reason Israel had fewer civilian deaths (that was me, one of them who didn't die) was because of Israel's excessive violence. And I thought it was because I was in Jerusalem and couldn't be hit by Hizbullah.<br/>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Dr Guy</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<div class="Article_Quote">Dr Guy, fail.</div><br/><br/>See why I did not bother?  Leauki has gone over this and researched it in depth.  I have read his blogs on it, and his supporting sources.  I could basically repeat what he has said and do the same research, but everyone that has tried to trump him, and many have been honest in that they have provided sources for their positions, have not done so.  I admit that part of my beleif is just that - an opinion formed from reading the facts presented, and not actual facts themselves.  But then that is what we all do (or at least most hope to do) - we gather the facts, evalutate competing interpretations, and then form opinions.<br/><br/>My statement earlier of "Victimhood" for palestinians is my opinion based upon what I have learned, read and debated on this issue and others.  However, the facts that lead me to that conclusion are unarguable except in the court of world opinion, where facts are not used, just demigoguery.]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Dr Guy on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item><item><author>Leauki</author><comments>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</comments><description><![CDATA[<p><div class="Article_Quote"></p>
<p>I think the Palestenians are living in horrendous conditions and Israel with its ruthless blockade is not helping.</p>
<p></div></p>
<p>The "Palestinians" have a higher standard of living than Egyptians and Jordanians. When the border between Gaza and Egypt was open they literally bought the Sinai empty.</p>
<p><br />The "ruthless blockade" started when Hamas declared war. The border to Egypt was open until Hamas frightened the European border officials away.</p>
<p>Israel didn't force the "Palestinians" to vote for Hamas and war.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>]]></description><guid isPermaLink="True">http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</guid><link>http://bahuvirupaksha.joeuser.com/article/314144</link><pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:19:13 -0400</pubDate><pubDateParsed>2008-07-25T15:19:13</pubDateParsed><title>Leauki on OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST</title></item></channel></rss>