"Islam was hijacked by leaders in the Middle East to keep people ignorant and obedient. " - Baker

This is not a new concept. It has been repeated in history more than a few times. A more famous and recent incedent would be Nazi Germany.



I don't know enough about Islam, and it is my fault that this is true, but I am very sure that this Middle East thing has more to do with the people in power than Islam the religion.

My daughter has converted to Islam and since then has become a terrorist sympathizer.

---JB

I've noted that any recent convert to any religion is usually much more zealous than those born and raised into it.

For my part, it's sad that anyone would convert to such an intolerant and hateful faith; I wonder how she'd feel if she went to live in a Muslim country where they still practice the old ways? Where they consider women to be property that happens to be able to make babies. Where a woman can be stoned to death for daring to wear nail polish, or even forv simply showing her face.
I have no idea where you live, of course, but I bet you don't live in such a country.

If a newpaper printed a picture depicting Christ as a child molester Christians would ignore it because they know it not to be true, and there would not be the violence that has occured in the Islamic states. Perhaps Islam believes that the cartoon depiction is true!

---JB

In my view, Islam is simply a childish religion. Its faithful are frequently given to tantrums because they are part of a faith that nutures stunted emotional and intellectual maturity and thin-skinned views.....this combination leaves them very easily offended.
They're told by their most popular "clerics" (most of whom have agendas more politcal than spiritual) that their problems are the fault of everyone but themselves, when their problems come mainly from Islam itself. It's left them in the Tenth Century while everyone else has moved on to the Twenty-First.

dear all

just wanted to make the record streight for all. I have read these articles posted above and read alot of hate and misunderstandings. regarding islam , it is a 1400 year old religion . for those who believe it has been an intolerent and its followers discultured and barbaric are wrong. Islamic nations in the middle ages were the most cultured people in the world , they were rich in science and arts , Algebra , astronmy , much had alot to do with Islam (algebra for example came from the scientist Al Jabr). Thus islamic nations at one time were extremely scientific and spiritual, if you read Mohammads biographies , u will understand that he was a very tolerant and Just man.

the main reason why u see islam in this stage is :

a) the introduction of the Alwahab sect
b)World war I and the inception of Saudi Arabia
c) the soviet afghan war
d) 9/11 and the potrayal of islam in western civilization

the Alwahab sect

Islam like christianity is devided into sects each quite different from the other , in the late 19th century a man with extremely rigid beliefs about islam rose up who was called Al wahab who spread a very rigid and fundamentalistic approach to islam , he spread a religion which took away the rights granted to women (btw did u know that in the 14th century women were treated as cattle and it was islam that gave them rights and protection , kinda wierd as how islam is potrayed these days)
anyway , the alwahab sect gained popularity amongs local beduins in saudi arabia.

world war I

Islam prior to world war I has a head , something like the pope called the Khalifa, at the time most of non colonized islamic states were ruled by the ottoman empire. in world war I , the khalifa made the blunder of allying with the axis , thus the british sent an agent to destabalize the ottoman rulership by inciting the local arab bedouins , he quickly gained trust of the bedouins (who were wahabi and thus apposed to the ottoman way of moderate and enlightened islam) and set out to destabalise the ottomans by bombings of civilian outposts and rails (terrorist actvities no) well gues who he was , yes good old Lawrence of Arabia. well after that the ottomans were overthrown and saud took over arabia and became its king (he was of the wahibi faith) he took over islams most holy site , the city of Maccah and the kaaba.

Soviet afghan war

soviet afghan war was another turning point in the radicalization of islam , this is when america setup equipments stocks , the arabs provided the money, there was a call for jihad to fight the amercans war and special agents were inserted to train these people (guess who the agent was , yes none other than OBL himslef) anyway the soviet union defeated , america withdrew and walah power vacuum . Osama realises yes he has the weapons and the money now . At this point good old saadam mr secular , americas pal (fighting a war against iran heavily sponsored by america) decided to flex his muscles and launched an invasion into kuwait, threatning both saudi and american interests . OBL contacted the arabs and told em he had the striegnt to drive off the iraqis , the saudis rejected his proposal and went to america instead. OBL after desert storm 1 decided he needed cash and a ready supply of people to exert his pressure onto the world , thus cutting a v long story short the wto first bombing , plane highjackings and finally 9/11

9/11 and islams potrayal

well after 9/11 OBL became the defacto figure for islam , a person with aspirations purely political with nothing to do with islam who manipulated the youth of islam , playing on their emotions (there is alot of injustice in the world my friends , when one sees a picture of a victim in bosnia and cosovo , in chechnea and kashmir and in palastine , it is kinda hard , imaging what that must do if one is a) young and full of fervor and less educated). The media has also done its bid in potraying islam as vicious and insensitive which is clearly not the case ,

In response to a comment earlier that the 'minority' according to him which is moderate and does nothing about the terrorists well , with all the might of america , has it been able to root out extremism and terrorism , how can moderate people root it out just like that without addressing the causes of this , u see the causes are quite different , we dont live in a game where everything is good or evil , no its different , there are shades of gray , the main reason for extremism is because there is too much social injustice in the world, u see there is no balancer , people who live in civilized nations like you and me cant imagine life in countries where basic social freedoms are supressed , not necessarilly by the governments (though they have a large part) but by western civilization itself, where there is hunger powerty and lac of education, u see only the most desperate person can end his life , no doctorine can make a person take his own life ... no doctorine is that powerful..... its desperation and a feeling of total injustice which is in escapable. thus it is upto us ,

civilized people of today to understand and firstly learn to tolerate one another and then find the root causes like the ones mentioned above and try to settle them , only then can we achieve peace. Also i would like to add that actions of a few should not be considered actions of the second largest faith in the world , for God sake , there are millions of people following this faith who live amongst you , who are your friends and co workers can you seriously blame them for an illiterate who burns a flag in a mob of 50

I hope that you found my comments informative, they are in no way intended to hurt anyones faith or beliefs so it is important that you people understand not to hurt our beliefs, I am a muslim and have deep respect for Jesus and moses(who we believe are beloved prophets of God just like Mohammad)

kind regards

might of america , has it been able to root out extremism , the answer is no , it has not , because the answer to rooting out extremism is notg through violence or hatred (infact that fuels it) its through tolerance understanding and education, you see there are alot of misguided people out there , people who think the world is against them that they have no hope , they need to be told that that is not the case , that they should not be inspired by the likes of OBL , people with purely political agendas , islam is a very tolerant faith , if you open qoran and read it you will your self appreciate its ethics and tolerence, they should be taught the true meaning which is broherhood and peace and the same goes for all of us here , I have seen alot of seething hate which in my opinion has stemmed from disinformation and the potrayel of islam in the media, we need to correct our perspectives aswell and realise that its not muslims that hate us (infact many muslim countries are allies in the war against terror) its the manipulative people like OBL and his extremist group who brainwash good kids into doing bad things by purposely making them mis interpret islam .

this reminds me alot of the cold war era really when all the time the tv was making the russians appear as evil ruuskies ..... were the people of russia evil ....

well thanks and kind regards

Every day brings the world closer to a conflict between the Moslem world and most of the rest of the world. You can point to contributing factors on all sides but what can not be condoned is the violence that is used by any group to support their beliefs. That includes Moslems, Jews and Western countries (Iraq War).

the answer to rooting out extremism is notg through violence or hatred (infact that fuels it) its through tolerance understanding and education

That is true.

And that is why it is so important to re-build the schools in Iraq, the same schools that were not allowed to teach tolerance and understanding under Saddam. That is why it is so important that peoples like the Iraqis and the Arab Palestinians are allowed to vote for their governments, even if they do elect racist idiots. And that is why regimes that support intolerance must be opposed, removed from power, and never defended.

I have seen alot of seething hate which in my opinion has stemmed from disinformation and the potrayel of islam in the media,

What is the portrayal of Islam in the media other than what Islam currently is? The media are not exagerating the facts, they are merely downplaying the dangers when they call terrorists "militants" or "resistance fighters" after they killed Israeli civilians or blew up a mosque in Iraq. If the media would refer to a terrorist as a terrorist, people can make up their own minds about what Islam is.

What disinformation do you see that causes hate among the people you know (the hate that you can see)? Can you give examples? Perhaps we can do something here and now.

its the manipulative people like OBL and his extremist group who brainwash good kids into doing bad things by purposely making them mis interpret islam

That is true. But can you give an example of one of OBL's misinterpretations? I am curious as to whether you are simply repeating what you have heard or whether you came to that conclusion on your own. You make a few good points, and I want to know whether they are really yours.

this reminds me alot of the cold war era really when all the time the tv was making the russians appear as evil ruuskies

I grew up in West-Berlin, a city isolated from the rest of the world by a wall built by the Russian-supported government of East-Germany. Believe me, no TV was needed to make the Russians appear as "evil ruuskies". Their land mines at the border and their soldiers who killed East-German refugees who tried to cross the border were quite sufficient.

The Russian people were not evil, but their regime sure was; at least until Gorbatchev. And the regimes they bred in eastern Europe caused so much sadness, it will take decades or centuries to forget, and to forgive.

Similarly the Iraqi people are not evil, but the Iraqi regime was. Now that the Iraqis have a choice, Iraq is no longer evil.

Well-done, Andrew.

Islamic nations in the middle ages were the most cultured people in the world , they were rich in science and arts , Algebra , astronmy , much had alot to do with Islam (algebra for example came from the scientist Al Jabr). Thus islamic nations at one time were extremely scientific and spiritual,

---virtualone

Yes, and while the rest of the world took their contributions and moved on through the centuries, the Muslims stayed behind. They've given us nothing, nada, zilch for the last 700 years. Except corpses, of course. Lots and lots of them.

civilized people of today to understand and firstly learn to tolerate one another and then find the root causes like the ones mentioned above and try to settle them , only then can we achieve peace. Also i would like to add that actions of a few should not be considered actions of the second largest faith in the world , for God sake , there are millions of people following this faith who live amongst you , who are your friends and co workers can you seriously blame them for an illiterate who burns a flag in a mob of 50

---virtualone

I've said it before and I'll say it as often as needed:

When the "peaceful" Muslims stand up and speak out against the atrocities of bin-Laden and others, and the hijscking of their faith by these mutants, with as much zealotry and fire as they did the stupid "Mohammed Cartoons", then I'll be happy to reexamine them and their faith. To this point, I've seen nothing, nada, zilch.
When you let the mutants do all your talking for you, people get to thinking you agree with them, and there you go.

You don't know that....no one does because it's never been tried. Oh, wait----yes it has.....it settled and matured Germany and Japan very well, thank you very much.

Germany had a kind of democracy in the same sense as Britain did at the time before Hitler. Not a particularily well working one, but still. They had free press and many democratic systems in place.

Hitler took them on a trip of the path, but arguably the detour only lasted about 10 years, so most germans knew what they had before, and it wasn't an extreme shock for them to return to that.

About Japan:

In 1854, Commodore Matthew Perry of the United States Navy forced the opening of Japan to the West with the Convention of Kanagawa. The Boshin War of 1867 to 1868 led to the resignation of the shogunate, and the Meiji Restoration established a government centered around the emperor. Japan adopted numerous Western institutions during the Meiji period, including a modern government, legal system, and military. These reforms helped transform the Empire of Japan into a world power, defeating China in the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895) and Russia in the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905). The Russo-Japanese war is important because it was the first time that an Asian country defeated an imperialistic power. By 1910, Japan controlled Korea, Taiwan, and the southern half of Sakhalin.

from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Modern_eraLink

So they too had a little detour.

Russia followed its own path where the communists overthrew a peasant state system and while they weren't technically free as we like to see it, they arguably experienced an enlightening period after the fall of the Tsar, and they've slowly developed into the nation they are now. They have some work to do, but they could also serve as an example that democracy doesn't just "happen".

Its my belief that democracy and freedom isn't as clear cut and "natural" to humans as we like to think. We're tribal animals when it all boils down do it. Some like to lead others, others like to be lead. There's nothing inherently evil or good and not in itself necessarily a signal of character strength in wanting to be a leader or wanting to be lead either. We all have different ideals and dreams and visions.

Germany had a kind of democracy in the same sense as Britain did at the time before Hitler. Not a particularily well working one, but still. They had free press and many democratic systems in place.

----Zwirwel1

But before that, remember, they had a monarchic dictatorship.
Their democracy was imposed on them by the victors of the first World War; they weren't at all used to it, and had problems implementing it when they had it. That's one reason Hitler was so well-received and had no problem manipulating the electorate. He offered a return to Strongman leadership.

Russia followed its own path where the communists overthrew a peasant state system

And ultimately crowded those peasants onto collective farms where 70 million and more of them were starved to death and/or murdered by Stalin.

and while they weren't technically free as we like to see it, they arguably experienced an enlightening period after the fall of the Tsar,

Yeah, very arguably. For 70 years after the fall of the Tsar, they were real enlightened. Their actual enlightenment came after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Things lit up real quick for them after that.
Let's not forget the purges and pogroms in which the Communists killed any people they considered disloyal. This led to a serious dearth of true, talented leaders in the Red Army, which in turn led to their initial massive losses to the advancing Nazis after Hitler initiated Plan Barbarossa. Yeah, they were REAL enlightened.

and they've slowly developed into the nation they are now. They have some work to do, but they could also serve as an example that democracy doesn't just "happen".

Agreed; democracy doesn't just happen. It takes time. But Russia would be having an easier time if they had true "democrats" in office. Putin, for example, is former KGB; not exactly a shining example of democratic ideals. But then, "true" democrats may be hard to come by in such nations. They are in Iraq.

Its my belief that democracy and freedom isn't as clear cut and "natural" to humans as we like to think.

Maybe not, but it sure has its upside, don't you think? Otherwise, utterly noone from oppressed nations would be risking life and limb coming to live in the free and democratic West.

We're tribal animals when it all boils down do it. Some like to lead others, others like to be lead.

True, but to use Germany and Japan as examples again, they've done very well, given time, with the priciples of democracy, even considering their dictator-led pasts.

There's nothing inherently evil or good

Bullshit. That's liberal-speak. Telling someone to wrap themselves in dynamite and walk into a school, boarding a bus or entering restaurant is evil; parking an explosive-packed truck or flying planes into office buildings is evil. Killing completely innocent people in the name of a god is evil.
Killing, in itself, is evil. There is good and evil in the world, and it's all in black and white.
Good is good and evil is evil. Problem is, often the only way to defeat evil is to commit evil acts.

We all have different ideals and dreams and visions.

I can respect that, but not when those dreams and ideals include the deaths of me, my family and friends, and the destruction of my nation and the end to my way of life. That's where the line is drawn for me.