why you think , really think about, the united states never fought white country , know the history, of america , and yes i was born in america.

---mecca7

Maybe Latin, Central or South America.
If you're a native-born American, and citizen of the US, you're a splendid testimony to what the liberals have done to the educational system here.

There seem to be a lot of bashing of people with a liberal view, based on stereotypes.

I'd like to think all right wing people aren't one homogenous mass. Do you want to prove me wrong?

And I am for a two state land of Israel and Palestine. I don't think Palestine conduct themselves very well, and I opposed Arafat getting the peace treaty which was obviously done for strategy.

"Islam was hijacked by leaders in the Middle East to keep people ignorant and obedient. " - Baker

That is the greatest most insightful remark that i have ever heard.... i 120% agree with that remark...

"The Muslim faith may not be a religion of violence, but it is certainly a religion which accepts and tolerates, and in countless instances openly advocates, violence against infidels." -daiwa

so according to you... 1.3 billion Muslims are indoctrined into following the path of hate... and these 1.3 billion people are looking to get us non-muslims? ... interesting...

"As soon as those peace-loving Muslims rise up and put an end to the terrorism being carried out in Allah's name, I'll accept your comparison as valid. " -daiwa

so when Germany was under Hitlers rule... im sure there was quite a few who didn't see his vision relating to massacre of Jews.... but they didnt step-up .. so (what im understanding for your remark) you can categorize a whole germany as nazi hating Jews... well i think it might be because they were opressed by the government... and forming a coalition to riot against the government wasnt as simple ... mainly because of the Gespato..

Similarly, you think anyone enjoyed being under Stalins rule? but then again forming a riot was impossible because if one person wanted to speak out he was killed.... how can one person even form a riot if he is shot before asking the second person to join his cause? ...

its not as easy to rise as you believe... opression has a lot to do with it... look at what happened in Iraq after America liberated the people... although there is still some fear but most people are openingly speaking up now because they dont feel their life is in-danger...

---

"Who do you think is more successful in the attempt to create that illusion?

Cartoonists or suicide bombers?" - Leauki

how about media instigating on the situation and blowing it out of proportion? we have seen it happen with many situations... media does what is in its interest... ie.. when the Rwanda situation was taking place... you didn't hear anything about it withn the our Major media outlets... because it wasnt in their interest... (dont bash me for bad example i cant htink of anyhting else at moment)

I am TOTALLY against the nonsense that has occured around some dumb cartoons.. dont get me wrong... but I think the media has a huge role in blowing this shit out of proportion... media twists up stories and events so it can get better ratings etc... there was one example .. CBC (candian news) broadcasted a short documentary about 911 and events unfolding around it... they showed a Clip that CNN aired showing Egyptians celebrating... and CNN said they were celebrating because the 9/11 attack was successfull.... the reporter for the documentary then showed the same clip occuring couple of years back ... the real reason of the celebration was totally different from what CNN portrayed it... so i guess my point is that Media outlets take stories blow it out of proportion to their own interest.... they show that the whole muslim world is Shocked and in rage... whereas its a group of fanatics who are participating in the retardness... and frankly tranishing the image of their culture...

"You, and Muslims all over the world, must understand that while this cartoon is an insult to you, the demand that our freedoms be changed to meet the Islamic standard of "respect" is a great threat to us. What we publish in our newspapers doesn't change the way Muslims in other coutries go about their business. The demands from Islam seek to change the very fabric of what we call freedom, and they are demands that are pushed forward under threat of violence." - baker

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"Christians and Jews were also not the only ones mistreated by Islam. Treated as badly were people of the Hindu faith, which didn't get any consideration as "people of the book". - Baker

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i have to tell you man Baker you are on money with your statments... Whatever you say i have to say 99% time i agree with it...

me being a person who was born into the Islamic culture and partly born into muslim family (my mom is muslim rest of us are basicaly atheist or secular) this hatred is manfested within the religion and unfortunately in the culture... its 100 percent true... but the thing is that quite a large population dont actually buy into this shit... but they dont do anything about it... its because the corrupt government supports the radicalist side of the the whole situation in-order to push their own agenda.... its quite retarded and complicated but the hate is cultivated into the culture and the people who do buy into this shit are the ones these governments propogate to their advantage...

i personally hate the arab countries (not the people but their political structure) i detest it... they are animals ... and Iraq is a good measure of change that will happen in middle-east... you know whats funny ... these arabs support palestine and its actions... but say if a palistine wanted to come to any of these arab countries to move away from the drama and get settled start a new life and get citizenship? they treat him like a scum... dont give them citizenship... they consider them to be scum of the earth (arab on arab discrimination)... thats the problem.... thats why i believe that Iraq is a good stepping stone to move away from this type of nonsense...

Welcome to the discussion, highbass.

so according to you... 1.3 billion Muslims are indoctrined into following the path of hate... and these 1.3 billion people are looking to get us non-muslims? ... interesting...

No, that's not what I said at all. A significant number of those 1.3 billion Muslims are indoctrinated in following a path of hate, to be sure, but hardly all. Those who are not, however, and I'm talking about the religious leadership, not ordinary folk, do not appear to be making a visible effort to counter that indoctrination.

"As soon as those peace-loving Muslims rise up and put an end to the terrorism being carried out in Allah's name, I'll accept your comparison as valid."

Clearly the majority of Germans were at the time either unaware of what was happening or were passively complicit in the holocaust. There were notable exceptions, but too few of them. This was a state-organized and operated extermination program - you can't dispose of 6 million souls without many thousands knowing and participating. And the comparison is not really apt, anyway - the Wahabist view has not been imposed, under penalty of incarceration or death, on all Muslims. Other Muslim clerics are free to reject terrorism & hate, as are ordinary Muslims, and to actively oppose it - there is no equivalent of a Stalin or Hitler in the Muslim world imposing this notion that terrorism is to be tolerated or condoned. Muslims shouldn't point to Hitler or Stalin as some sort of excuse for tolerating the terrorists in their midst.

Your comments suggest that there is much more agreement between our views than not. I meant no insult to individual Muslims; I just think, given how peace-loving Muslims vastly outnumber the terrorists, they are the most likely to succeed in convincing their own adherents that the path of violence and hate has a dead end. I have to admit, however, that the cartoon fiasco has raised doubts in my mind about the proportion of Muslims who are truly "peace-loving."

there is no equivalent of a Stalin or Hitler in the Muslim world imposing this notion that terrorism is to be tolerated or condoned.

suddam was... and Muslim world tolerating terrorism? ... (correct me if im wrong) but all Arab states are self-proclaimed Islamic states... and by letting mullahs preach about terrorism and how it is the way... i think the state infact are themselves advocating terrorism....
what im tring to say is that the way the government structure if these countries run... its either the Head of the states way or the highway (which usually leads to painful death)....
Also, believe me most of the Arab states they have somthing similar to Gestapo's ... we (or i guess most of the World) just dont know about it... similarly like we didn't know about Stalin and the extent of his influence during his reign... matter of fact every now and then history channel talks about how a new massacre grave was found in Russia relating back to Stalin... you will never know the extent of these leaders enforcement until you live in one of these places and find out yourself... i for one hand did used to live in a middle eastern country... but since my father was will connected... our family didn't have a big issue at all.. it was like everything was normal... except until recently some of the stories my dad told me even shocked me...... unfortunately everything in these countries are controlled by big brother... and in their case big brother unfortunately happens to be Islam... or more specfic it is Mohammed...

(please dont take offense to what i mean by "big-brother" ... big-brother is just an imgery of control... if you understand that then you'll understand what i mean)

"you can't dispose of 6 million souls without many thousands knowing and participating." - daiwa

again back to Stalinism era... he was quite effective doing such...

Your comments suggest that there is much more agreement between our views than not. I meant no insult to individual Muslims;

for most part I totally understand your feelings.... and I dont take offense to your opinion but my only resentment is that you categorize a whole nation of people because some idiots hide behind the name of the religion...



as for Muslims not doing much to want change... well i will go dwell on my whole point on oppression (the Pillar reason America stepped in Iraq to change...)... Of course people are not gonna step up to force change... its not that simple... no one wnats to risk their familes, their children, their own lifes without being sure of change... i mean there is more to it that what i am saying but its difficult to start a revolt without being sure of positive outcomes...



BUT



look at the voting that occured in Iraq and Afghanistan... people are actually stepping up to these polls to vote... the minute Suddam was removed as its leader people actually start speaking out and you here all these people getting interviewed on TV that are from Iraq openly speaking their mind because they are not Afraid of somone coming and killing their family or them etc.. so ... if you think that the voting in Iraq is not a fundamental step that these people are taking, risking their lives for change... if you think they are not proving themselfs still then my friend i think we disagree more then we agree..

you categorize a whole nation of people because some idiots hide behind the name of the religion...

I haven't explained myself well, then, because that's not how I feel or what I mean to say. Painting all adherents with the same brush is wrong and dumb. Nonetheless, there is no single "nation" of Islam and not all Muslims are subject to Saddam-like regimes; probably a majority are not, and it seems many are indeed in a position to actively oppose terrorism.

I am encouraged by your comments about the developments in Iraq - I am in complete agreement there, but your message doesn't get disseminated well by our media.

I am in complete agreement there, but your message doesn't get disseminated well by our media

and there lies the real issue... like i said earlier... its the media that corrupts our minds...

a perfect example of media catering to their interest was what happened recently when Bush went to Pakistan for a conference with Musharaf... I first watched the news on GEO TV (which is a pakistani new broadcasting station) and they talk about how Bush and Musharaf got along very well and they were on the same terms etc... and then later that night i tune into CNN... and they totally showed a different side of the story... they showed how Bush and Musharaf were disagreeing during their press conference speech and were not on the same level and then they show tidbits of clips relating to the press conference...

i personally was quite amazed and stunned at how much CNN twisted up the story... especially because i watched the whole 3-4 hours of the press conference and not for a moment did i feel that there was any sort of content/hostility etc...

I guess what im rambaling about is that news outlets (no matter where) always twist to their needs in-order to properly juice the story and get majority of public to form an interest to increase their ratings...
Finally, daiwa i understand your resentment regarding the whole cartoons issue believe me you and me are in what i call a "logical society" (to much extent) we are in countries whose political structure is not influenced by a religion (to a great extent) therefore we look at things in a "better" light (im not saying we are superior to others... just that we have the choice to express our toughts therefore paving way for logical open-mind thinking)... Whatever might be the incentive for America going to War in middle east (people say oil etc...) frankly i dont care what it is... because i perceive myself as an humanitarian and i see that what America has done in Iraq far outweighs anything bad i originally conceived .. and in-order for manklind to progress (and we should all progress together no matter what race, skin color, religion etc...) such can only be done by giving man the ability to think and express his own feelings... and you know what the funny thing is... the people who appreciate what America did the most in Iraq is none-other then Iraqi's themselves... you go next time and find somone who is Iraqi and you ask him what he thinks about the whole deal with Iraq... ill bet you that he will cry in joy... Im from Canada and im sad to say but American news outlets are disgusting to me... if you ever get a chance to watch CBC ... you watch and see the message and how different things are told... not to long ago there was a documentary on CBC news about an Iraqi family who had relatives in Iraq and moved to Canada etc... basically it was news coming from the primary source and frankly there whole story was quite touching... i have many Iraqi friends and they are all on the same boat us most of us abotu Suddam and what a bastard he was... the real problem we have is that media never focuses on the Good... its always pushing this bullshit of the bad and such (probably because it does get our attention)... I bet you many headaches we have today would have been resolved if the media was honest with their news in the first place...

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is both gratifying and disheartening to hear that the bias of our media is so evident to people like you outside the US. I have reason to believe there is more than just ratings in play, however - there is a collective mindset at CNN (& many other news organizations) which is fundamentally hostile to the administration and believes down to their bones that "regime change" is needed here.

I don't believe there is an orchestrated conspiracy among the various media organizations, but there is enough commonality of bias as to appear that way at times. They also follow a very transparent & consistent pattern - repeatedly telling us "XYZ is bad", then as the drumbeat of repetition eventually begins to persuade people that XYZ might be bad, they start trumpeting articles about how "the American public increasingly believes XYZ is bad", which is their way of saying, "See, I told you so" - a completely manufactured cycle of self-fulfilling prophecy. And they actually award themselves prizes for this.

My daughter has converted to Islam and since then has become a terrorist sympathizer.
So what does that tell you about Islam?
If a newpaper printed a picture depicting Christ as a child molester Christians would ignore it because they know it not to be true, and there would not be the violence that has occured in the Islamic states. Perhaps Islam believes that the cartoon depiction is true!

It is both gratifying and disheartening to hear that the bias of our media is so evident to people like you outside the US.

A funny example, although slightly off-topic... I'm norwegian, and I follow both BBC World and CNN Europe (CNN is divided into many channels, CNN, CNN Europe, CNN Asia and possibly more, who switch among themselves to cover news, sometimes with confusing results when they go into or out of each other midsentence).

In norway there was an oil worker strike awhile ago. Now, norway is one of the largest oil exporters in the world and oil is a the crucial factor of the norwegian economy, but the state oil company, Statoil, decided to shut down or do a lock-out (the employers "strike" ability) on the non-unionized employees in protest against the strike while this row was settled. This is not that unusual here, we don't have the american historical traits of unions being allied with organized crime etc. In fact, 1/4th of the norwegian population is unionized and its not mandatory to be in a union here. Likewise, employers have their own "unions" of sorts. It all balances out.

Anyway, BBC World reported that there was an oil worker strike/oil company lockdown in norway and wrote/spoke briefly about the points of discussion between the parties and that was that. Nothing big.

The CNN report however was much differently angled. The american news anchor who talked to the norwegian CEO of Statoil almost pleaded with him to end the lock-out and seemed to almost paint a picture of norways bankruptcy being imminent any moment if they continued, while the CEO himself was completely relaxed, which seemed to scare the anchor even more. Now it could just be that particular anchor, but this stands out in my memory as particularily funny.

My daughter has converted to Islam and since then has become a terrorist sympathizer. So what does that tell you about Islam?

i dunno what it tells me about Islam but your daughter she might be in love with a terrorists or is planning to become one herself...

My daughter has converted to Islam and since then has become a terrorist sympathizer.

I think some people who join "rebel" groups (if you can call terrorist cells/groups such) but it would be like a punk/goth group, criminals, theatre, opposite of her parents political party irrelvant of where they stood, or similar, as a way of carving her own independance or as a sort of rebellion against the established system or status quo or to get attention/recognition for being just "different" or not mainstream.
It could be because of feelings of disillusionment, loneliness or that such groups tend to, like alternate religious movements for example or even neo nazi groups, to be very inclusive and welcoming of new members and feelings of loyalty grow strong and fast.