This blog explores the contemporary political and cultural trends from a distinct perspective
A Dangerous Policy
Published on June 5, 2008 By Bahu Virupaksha In Politics

Barack Obama seemed to be making all the right noices, well, until he clinched the Democratic Party nomination. The speech given  before the AIPAC yesterday came as a huge surprise to me. I did not expect him to break the traditional frienship with Israel, but I did not expect him to sign on to the extreme right wing interpretation of Israeli-US relations. Obama was of course courting the powerful jewish American vote and we are all realistic or cynical enough to understand that the ocassion called for a strident reaffirmation of the traditional US policy. And given Sen John Mccain's carping on this issue, Senator Obama had to rachet up the rhetoric. But his policy statement is really alarming. Let me expalin why.

The road map to which the US is a party envisages a viable Palestenian state living in peace and security with Israel. Israel is one of the few countries that has not published its official boundries. Will Golan Heights be returned to Syria. Will Sheba Farms  be returned to Lebabon> These questions remain to be answered. Further, is Israel willing to withdraw to the 1967 boundry, the only solution that seems acceptable to Arab publoc opinion. Obama did not say a word about the contentious issues: instead he waxed eloquently about "tough diplomay" which he equated with statecraft. I think giving Israel a carte blanhe ibn the region, as Obama has proposed, wiill not help the cause of peace in the Middle East and it certainly will not help Israel. USA maust paly the role the Bismark played in the Congress of Berlin in 1877 in order to achieve peace.

The tough rhrtoric of Barack Obama, much tougher than John Maccain's, means that he is willing to give Israel veto power over its Arab neighnors. The road to peace, like apostle Paul's passes through Damascus. Obama seems to have forgotten that. To quote his own words "somewhre along the road to the nomination he has forgotten his own principles."

Iran and Iraq are different issues altogether. The mistake Bush made in Iraq was that he bought Paul Wolfowitz's line that the Middle East can be restructured with the removal of Saddam Hussein. We all know how foolish that assumption was and Iraq has become the singe most impoertant issue in this election. Barack Obama would be more realistic if he did not make tall claims about doing "everything in his power" to stop  Iran from getting the nuclear weapons. Is he sayinmg that he will nuke tTheran if Iran is close to acquing nuclear weapons. Is this a realistic policy. Rhetoric apart, we have come to expect statemenship from Barack Obama not Rambo like bombast. His "tough diplomacy" is not like Theofre Roosevelt's policy of walikg softly while carrying a big stick. Bluff and bluster have no palce in a post Iraq US foreigh policy.

I do agree with the argument that Israel's legitimate right to existence and security are non negotiable. However, I do not see how backing Israel's aggressive policy of what even the former US president Jimmy Carter has called "apartheid" will help in bringing about peace. Hamas is a foece to reckon with in the region like Hezbollah and it is naive to think that if USA does not negotiate with them, these forces will just disappear: take a long days journey into night.

 


Comments (Page 2)
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on Jun 06, 2008

Kaliningrad was captured by the russians during world war 2 was it not? Shall we class that as an illegal war? I'll take your point however.


What's an illegal war? Germany attacked its neighbours and was defeated.

The Arabs attacked Israel and were defeated.

There is nothing illegal about defeating the attacker.



Well the UN didn't single out Israel, they've made requests to the likes of Iraq (for their invasion of Kuwait), Sudan (for their invasion of Darfur), It's just that these countries didn't have a hugely succesful lobby in America that allowed it to get away with clearly disregarding the UN.


Kuwait didn't attack Iraq. I am all for annexations resulting from attacking another country for no reason other than greed being illegal.

I am talking about annexations in lieu of reparations, annexations done by the attacked and winning party.

Maybe you misunderstood me. I am all for Russia and Poland keeping parts of Germany even though they won them in a war. And with the same passion I am for Israel keeping East-Jerusalem and Golan.



Either way, to put into context what is happening, let's say Britain and France went to war tomorrow. In a conflict lasting six days, the French forces were pushed out of Normandy before finally suing for peace.


Ok, good example. So the French decided to attack Britain and exterminate the English. Plus they wanted to make Britain a part of France (or replace it with another French country).

This war follows, of course, two decades of France trying to destroy Britain. Also all ethnic English have been expelled from Europe and settled in England. (Plus, in an earlier war between the two, ethnic Normans in England tried to slaughter their fellow British and then fled to France.)



British forces remained in Normandy, which you know isn't all that unuasal after winning a conflict. Then the French went to the UN asking for Normandy back, and the UN agreed with them.


You see, and that's the part I don't see. Germany didn't get Pommerania back after the war. That's simply not how it's done.

What you are looking for is a way to give an aggressive country no reason to avoid war.


Which in some respects may not of been the right thing to do, whats to say that after giving Normandy back the French just wouldn't have another pop at us? Regardless the UN has voted, it is the closest thing we have to a global democracy (which i think can only be considered a good thing) and as such should be adhered to.


Democracy without a constitution is not a "good thing" and never has been.

What you are talking about is not "democracy" in the sense that we know it but simply a vehicle for anti-Semitism. The UN, with votes per country, will ALWAYS vote against Israel in those situations. What's the point of having the Arabs attack Israel and lose and then ask the Arabs (who have more votes than Israel) whether they should be given back what they lost?

That's like having Germany and Austria attack Poland every now and then and lose (hopefully) and then demand, with two votes against one, that Poland pay reparations.



Britain at this point refuses, and maintains an occupation of Normandy against the will of the French people living there, and the French people in the surrounding area, The French government, the UN and international opinion (whatever good that is).


Perhaps it protects Britain from another French attack?

What if Britain offered to give Normandy back to France in exchange for peace (like Israel did with the territories and Gaza in 1967) and the French refused?



The British then start moving British citizens across onto Main land Europe and settling in Normandy, more importantly removing French families from their homes, bulldozing them and then building a new house on top of it for the new British settlers (All this in the areas with good access to water and other rich resources).


That's what the French wanted to do to the British. I can see how they would hate that.

However, the settlers in the territories were not "moved" there by Israel and (in most cases) build settlements on land that was Jewish before 1948.

You might be surprised to learn that Poles live in Pommerania.



Leauki may contest the issue of bulldozing, as he has previously with me. I've not been to Israel, nor the Gaza strip or the West Bank. I've only information i've obtained from journalists and members of organistations such as the UN.


Actually, neither journalists nor the UN made that claim; not that I could find, anyway. My contesting the issue was with YOU making the claim, while the BBC (and the UN as far as I could see) didn't even go that far.

I remember when I asked you for a source, you came up with a BBC article describing the destruction of a police station in Jenin during the war. (I assume we can both agree that the grounds of a former police station in the middle of a hostile city is not a prime location for a "settlement".)


I spoke to my fathers friend, an expert in peace negotiation for the UN from Northern Ireland. He was in Ramalla and witnessed a Palastinian home having it's occupance evicted and finally bull dozed. Several days later work began on brining in mobile homes for a new Israeli settlement. I believe this happened fairly recently.


Actually, the Jewish settlement is next to Ramalla, not in Ramalla. What your father's friend saw was very likely the destruction of a home by the police or army. THAT HAPPENS, especially when the house harboured terrorists or was a weapons depot.

It is unlikely that mobile homes would be moved into that same position afterwards, for the simple reasons that there is no benefit in doing so, not even for the greediest and evilest of Zionists.

There are perfectly nice spots to settle that are not located in the most hostile city of the West Bank.

If the "expert" connected the dots in such a way, it suggests to me that he made a colossal mistake that will probably cost lives when it is sold as fact.

Point is, if you claim that Israel (not settlers, but the Israeli government) practice ethnic cleansing, you better have evidence; not a story of a friend of a friend that can mean lots of things, but actual evidence.


but the more i find out about it, the more i can in the very least understand their contempt for their Israeli neighbours.


Can you find out about my contempt for anti-Semitic lies and the people who propagate them?

When you say "find out about it", better make it "hear stories". You didn't "find out" anything. You read a story of a police station destroyed by a bull dozer and jumped to ethnic cleansing from there.

Yes, I can understand Arab contempt for Israel too. Some simply hate Jews and have hated them before Israel had the power to do anything to anybody. And others, most others I would think, just happen to be fed stories as facts because somebody thinks that hearing a story means "finding out".


From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni):

"Back in the summer of 1940 and again in February 1941, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government a draft declaration of German-Arab cooperation, containing a clause:

Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of The Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy"


You still think this has anything to do with Israel bulldozing people's homes?

I want to be honest with you. It's your statement, in the other discussion, I think it was yours:

"Well quite simply because if a foreign government came into my town, bulldozed some buildings and built a settlement I'd be sure as hell willing to fight to take it back."

That statement was probably the most disgusting and anti-Semitic statement I have read in a long time. Most supporters of the "Palestinian cause" (the one launched by the Grand Mufti or the reaction to Israel's reaction) tend to be less direct.

After DECADES of Arabs trying to exterminate the Jews, YOU are finally telling me that this is about "fighting to take it back", that the Arabs are simply defending their homes against destruction?
on Jun 06, 2008

I've read your post Leauki, i've no time to reply to all of it but i promise after the weekend i will, but please allow me to make one comment on your closing paragraph(s).

 

Why is my statement anti-Semitic? Anti-Semitic would suggest that i dislike Jewish people, would it not? Let's say i am wrong, and that you are right. Why would my misinterpritation of events make me dislike people of a certain faith?

How dare you insult me in such a way, it's like saying i'm a racist because i didn't fully understand the issues surrounding the abbolition of slavery.

 

on Jun 06, 2008
Interesting how the word Anti-Semitic is used all the time to describe someone thats trying to explain about Israel and Palestine, its almost like an excuse. Gets annoying when you don't see it coming.
on Jun 07, 2008
Poor form Leauki. Many insults have been hurled to the arab people this thread, and noone has accused anyone of being racist against Arabs. But when Scot made a statement regarding the actions of a STATE (not the people), you use a word that'll only stifle intellectual debate and cause division and anger on both sides to surface.

At any rate, it reminds me of when the war in Iraq was still popular. If anyone criticised it, the 'patriots' would say something like "stop supporting terrorism and start supporting our troops". Nationalism can have a very ugly side, and this thread has confirmed that in more ways than one.
on Jun 07, 2008

Dr Guy, you make the problem of Palestine all the more irretactable when you say that the Palestenians do not have a homeland. The Balfour Declaration called for a HOMELAND for the European Jewry, but by no stretrch of the imagination can that be equated with a "sovereign" State of Israel as it exists now. The Balfour Declaration did not call for the eviction of Arabs from the lasnd that they had settled on. So the concept of Homeland remains eactly that an undefined concept. It was the horrors of the German sponsored Holocaust that brought about an urgency to the problem rersettling jews. I have stated that the Arab governments did not help the Palestenians one bit 60 years ago and the Arans have no interest in settling or bringing about a just resolution. 1967 boundry with joint control over Jerusalem and a freeze on further settlerments is the beginning toward a solution. There are quite a large number of people in Israel today who have become passionate about the idea of peaceful coexistence with Palestenians.

I think the talk of nukes andthreats from,certain quarters is just not helping.

on Jun 09, 2008
The Balfour Declaration


First, that is a common myth. The declaration has nothing to do with Palestinians creating a country. I have read it. it is only some stuffed shirt brit pontificating on the issue - 100 years ago!

Damn man! How long are they going to use some nobody's opinion (which did not specifically count out ANYTHING) as justification for them doing nothing?

You just proved my point. They are not interested in creating a society, just finding whatever excuse they can come up with not to do a damn thing.
on Jun 11, 2008

They are not interested in creating a society, just finding whatever excuse they can come up with not to do a damn thing.

There are factors that one has to consider while dealing with Israel,Palestine and the Middle East in general. You cannot wish away history just because it is inconvinient. Palestine formed part of themandated territories as per the Balfour Declaration and it is well to remember that the "stuffed shirt brits" were not interested in the Palestenians as such. Yet the mention of the word Palestine give international legitimacy to the claims of the dispossessed people. Rthnic cleansing on a scale that inaugurated the birth of the State of Israel is not acceptable to most of the world and hence an honorable settlemrnt has to be made. Some of us feel the 1967 border could be negotiated and it is up to Israel and her superpower handler to ensure that the road map is secure on the road to peace and as I pointed out the road like Paul's passes through Damascus.

All the territories that we call Middle East were part of the Ottoman Empire and it was the defeat of the Ottomans in World War I and the Treaty of San Germain that made all the mess there which is still being sorted out.

on Jun 11, 2008
There are factors that one has to consider while dealing with Israel,Palestine and the Middle East in general. You cannot wish away history just because it is inconvinient. Palestine formed part of themandated territories as per the Balfour Declaration and it is well to remember that the "stuffed shirt brits" were not interested in the Palestenians as such.


Back when the Balfour declaration was written (it was not a law, mandate, or treaty, just a thesis paper), the Brits thought they were gods, and NO ONE was worthy of their attention. Yet look at all the other British "colonies" of yore? While not all are models of greatness, almost all are doing a hell of a lot better than the palestinians.

You keep throwing up red herrings to excuse the laziness of the palestinians. And every excuse is show down with a simple comparison. The Palestinians have had a lot of time, and resources (not an overabundance of them, but sufficient) to create a country. They have not. They have not even started the process of doing anything other than legitimizing their war lords. Think Afghanistan post British rule (the other failure of a former colony).
on Jun 11, 2008
Dr Guy, Do you have Interviews, Videos, of the Palestinian people? Have you met any of them or even better, been there? I'm not on any side cos it doesn't concern my country but from reading what you've wrote, its really annoying to see someone calling Palestinians lazy when they haven't lived they way Palestinians lived. I would really be interested to read anything to back what you have wrote.
on Jun 11, 2008
Dr Guy, Do you have Interviews, Videos, of the Palestinian people? Have you met any of them or even better, been there? I'm not on any side cos it doesn't concern my country but from reading what you've wrote, its really annoying to see someone calling Palestinians lazy when they haven't lived they way Palestinians lived. I would really be interested to read anything to back what you have wrote.


Facts? Sure. Show me the articles of Governance for the Palestinian nation.

You cant? Not surprising. There are none.

Lazy? I make no bones about saying that is my opinion. Lazy is after all a subjective term, not objective. Have I lived there? No, have you? Have I talked to any? Sure have. have you?

YOu can go around and proclaim that Americans are ugly, arrogant and self centered. I will argue with you on all points. And I am sure you can find individuals to back up your opinion, just as I can find ones to negate your opinion. But note the common word there. Opinion. If you want to believe that of Americans, that is your opinion, not facts. Just as mine are stated here. I stated facts when discussing facts - the Balfour Declaration. My opinion of the palestinians (and I use the term lazy in the context of not creating a government - not in all their daily activities) is based upon observable facts. Do you wish to contest those facts? or just my opinion? If the latter, go for it. We will only agree to not agree. If the former, please show me the error of my ways.
on Jun 11, 2008
Yo? I said that i was on no one's side and don't give a rats ass about the situations because its just not worth my time to research on my own. From what you wrote, you are calling all of the Palestinians lazy. I'm just saying it as I see it,= Terrorist terrorizing the population if they ever do get to negotiating with Israel. Without peace and being a country that from what I've found has had sanctions placed upon them, I'd say that would be damn hard to stabilize things around oh and don't forget about the terrorists running around recruiting the young . I will read and take in the things said, but its just not worth the effort that would go into arguing, everyone will defend their opinion and it would become an endless loop from looking around these forums. Until something happens to my own country then I Do Not care. Hehe, I seriously sound VERY EVIL. But its night-time from where I am, i just got back from my job, and am very tired. ~_~ sleepy as hell and going to refresh my brain before i say anymore so i don't make an ass out of myself. So i say good night from S.E.A.
(And i don't care if i made an ass out of myself already. lol) -Aw damnit
on Jun 11, 2008
Yo? I said that i was on no one's side and don't give a rats ass about the situations because its just not worth my time to research on my own. From what you wrote, you are calling all of the Palestinians lazy


YOu also missed the punctuation apparently. I was not asking you to do anything. I was merely trying to explain that in my opinion they are lazy in not creating a government (not that they may or may not be lazy about taking our trash, doing dishes, etc.). My questions were rhetorical (that sometimes is not apparent with the written word).

YOu asked me to back up my opinion. I stated some of the sources for it. But I am not going to go the route of "until you have walked a mile....." crap. A fellow student in high school tried that crap on me when I condemned drug use (this was the hippy era if that gives you an idea). I will tell you what I told her then: "I have not tried arsenic and do not intend to, so are you saying I cannot call it a poison?"

The same thing here. I dont have to live among them to know that life is not fair. And life is very hard - more so if you are lazy or stupid. We have only to look at how others have dealt with adversity and risen above it. And we do not have to look far. In 1948, the Palestinians and Israelis were in about the same boat (that is history, so yea, that is a fact). Look at where they are now? it does not take a genius to figure out that one group of people had a dream and busted their butts to achieve it. The other just played the victim - and never achieved much of anything.

Dont be so sensitive. I understand you dont have a side. And you were just questioning (albeit somewhat accusingly - but no skin off my nose) my position. That is why I said "opinion" several times. OPinion does not have to be based on anything (that is usually called bias), but having it based on facts helps.
on Jun 11, 2008
Alright, I apologize if I made it sound like an accusation. I see how you view the situation, but from the last news I saw, aren't there also different types of groups trying to take power? If thats true, I think that it could be something that could make forming a government much harder. Oh, and good morning from S.E.A.
on Jun 12, 2008
Alright, I apologize if I made it sound like an accusation. I see how you view the situation, but from the last news I saw, aren't there also different types of groups trying to take power? If thats true, I think that it could be something that could make forming a government much harder. Oh, and good morning from S.E.A.


Good morning as well! And you have a very valid point. It is unfortunate that the society of Palestinians is hampered by the meglomania of some. That does temper my statements and opinions as while I still think the issue of "laziness" plays a part it is not the entire reason they have not been able to progress. Yet all societies have their prima donnas. Most at least marginalize them to have little or no effect. Palestinians do not seem inclined to marginalize theirs in order to move forward.

And I should clairify that when I say "lazy" I am not talking about Individual one or two. Just the society as a whole. Individual results may vary.
on Jun 12, 2008
Ah well, I would still give em 10 year. Why 10 years? I am overly optimistic that things in Iran and Syria will settle or fry which will hopefully die down the fighting, slowing the funds. Ah, I think I see a flaw in my predictions but can't figure where it is at the moment. The cursed nights are back!
-=What factions are fighting in Palestine at the moment? Any connections with the countries I mentioned above?=-
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