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Published on December 29, 2005 By Bahu Virupaksha In Current Events
On December 13, 2005 a few minutes past mid night a well built, healthy man walked the last few hundred feet between his cell on Death Row at San Quentin and the excecution chamber. That Tookie Williams was a ruthless killer no one denies. That he had a violent youth in which a dissipated life careened out of control uder the influence of poverty and drugs too no one denies. He along with Raymond set up a violent street gang, Cripps, this too is a fact. And he killed four people in typical gang land style. Having said all this can we say that he deserved a chance to straighten out his lfe.

I do not buy the theory of procecutorial misconduct during the course of the trial. That he was responsible for killing four young men is certain.

After his trial, Tookie Williams had embarked upon the worthy course of warning Black youth of the dangers of gang warfare and drugs by writing a series of books. He also wrote his autobiography which explains the social context in which he grew up. A fatherless childhood and two children from two different women by the time he was 18, and an irresponsible attitude towards his children, made him seek the refuge in a gang. The gang is probably the one social group that provided a degree of self worth and then the drift into crime.

It is not quite right to disscount the race factor in the debade on the Death Penalty. Tookie Williams was probed fro nearly 1 hour with hypodermic syringes before the vein to let the lethal mixture was found. This is ceratainly a cruel and unusual way of killing an individual, Further it took Mr Tookie Williams nearly 10 minutes to die. Some agony.

The federal jusdes had reccomended clemency for Tookie Williams on the ground that he had behaved in an exemplary manner in the last half of his life. He died at the age of 52 for a crime committed at the age of 24. Obviously he was a completely different man to the callow youth who had done the horrible deeds.Can this factor not be the ground for mercy?

Comments (Page 2)
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on Dec 29, 2005
Robbery is wrong. Murder is wrong. Committing cold-blooded (especially race-biased, as he did) murder in the act of a robbery is VERY wrong. Tookie Williams got what he deserved


I have not in any manner justified any of his crimes. In fat I have listed them all out.
on Dec 30, 2005
Short answer: "Yes."

Put it to bed already.

-- B
on Dec 30, 2005
Why are the majority of the inmates on DEATH ROW in American prisons predominantly black and statistically speaking well beyond the propotion of their percentage in the US population.


Maybe it's because they commit more crimes? If you've got so many statistics, why don't you look up WHY they're on death row to begin with. I'm sure it's not for overcharging to cut someone's lawn.

-- B
on Dec 30, 2005
All I am saying is that when we debate Capital Punishment we have to take the social environment of the pertetrator of crime.
---Bahu

And as I said, what does that matter? Committing crimes is wrong; it's nothing anyone has to think about. I don't care what your personal background is, stealing is wrong, and that includes stealing a life.




Then answer the question: Why are the majority of the inmates on DEATH ROW in American prisons predominantly black and statistically speaking well beyond the propotion of their percentage in the US population.
---Bahu

Because, according to FBI statistics, blacks, despite being only 12-15% of the overall US population, commit something like 52% of the overall violent crimes. OVERALL. You wanna talk way out of proportion? How's that? Also, they commit most of the race-based crimes. The average number of white-black crimes is well below the average of black-white.
Tookie killed white people because he hated them. That's a documented fact, admitted by the man himself. How do you exlain that one?


Man you are way off the track
---Bahu

In your humble opinion, of course.



The state has no right over the lives of the citizens, and that too a seemingly democratic one.
--Bahu

Well, as someone on here somewhere said, since the Death Penalty was reinstated in 1976, there have been over ten thousand inmates sentenced to Death Row, but only 1,000 executions in that time. Not exactly running them through an abbatoir, now are they? They're given much more than enough time to post multiple appeals and to have clemency hearings and such, if warranted.


After the 18th century the attitudes began to change.
---Bahu

Would that be the "Age of Enlightenment", or the "Age when we started losing our ability to control our civilization?" I'd vote for the latter.


I have not in any manner justified any of his crimes. In fat I have listed them all out.
---Bahu

But it sounds to me like you're excusing them because of his background. That's just as bad, in my book.


Maybe it's because they commit more crimes? If you've got so many statistics, why don't you look up WHY they're on death row to begin with. I'm sure it's not for overcharging to cut someone's lawn.
---Mr. Frog

Exactly; besides, Tookie would never have been caught doing any real work. Goes against the Gangbanger's Creed. Why work when you can just steal from the people who work?
on Dec 30, 2005
Bahu:
The state has no right over the lives of the citizens, and that too a seemingly democratic one


LW:
It has the right to compell its citizens to do all SORTS of things, from compulsory education to paying taxes to induction in the armed services to being executed.
And as a democracy we have not only voluntarily GIVEN our government these powers, we have DEMANDED that they make use of them and carry out the laws that "WE THE PEOPLE" have voted into passing.


It's called a social contract. It started with "We the People" in 1776 and has evolved to meet the needs of the society in which we live. The colonists formed a government in order to protect its interests and livelihood, as well as its physical security against Redcoats, Indians, and the like. And we still do that today, compelling society (the government) to protect our interests in everything from the "War on Drugs" to education reform.

Bahu:
The Timothy Mcveigh excecution is of a different order of magnitude and he was a mass murderer who killed for a diabolical political reason and cannot be equated with Tookie.


I gotta disagree with you there. McVeigh only blew up one building. Tookie inspired 96000 deaths since 1979.

Here's Tookie's legacy.
A recent article in the Los Angeles Times cited more than a thousand gangs, with some 85,000 members in Los Angeles County alone, although some criminologists
question this number. What we do know is that not only are gangs responsible for murder, kidnapping, robbery, rape and witness intimidation, but they are also becoming involved in so- called white collar crime, such as credit card fraud. What we do know is that many of these gangs have formidable arsenals.


Just 'cause Tookie only pulled the trigger on four doesn't mean he didn't start a system of murder, drugs, and corruption. So who's the bigger culprit?

I realize you are opposed to the death penalty in general, but you have to realize that each case is individual. Americans do not take capital punishment lightly, as seen in the actual figures of people put to death compared with the tens of thousands SENTENCED to death row.

If you're going to champion the abolition of the death penalty, do it with someone more saintly than Tookie Williams.
on Dec 30, 2005
Tookie's case is not an argument against but for the death penalty.
on Dec 30, 2005
Secondly, he killed citizens, preventing the State from benefiting from the contribution of those citizens. Since natural (let alone State) justice dictates that in order to be just punishment should match the severity of the crime, and since (in our culture at least) there is no higher value than that of life, the only appropriate punishment for murder is the extinguishing of the life of the murderer.


Damn, emp. You're good. Have an insightful, on the house!
on Dec 30, 2005
And by the way, he DID profit from these 'books.' It is illegal for an inmate to make money by selling his story (thanks to John Wayne Gacy for that, i believe)


Actually, it was Berkowitz. They're known as "Son of Sam Laws". And not every state actually has them, but I'm pretty sure California does.
on Dec 31, 2005
The PEOPLE decide what's best for the people, and our government is just an instrument used to carry out that will.


You are turning political theory on its head:Representative democracy works best when the political leadership acts in accordance to the mandate from the people. If this is how the US democracy functions then Iraq War would not have happened.

As for the state having the right to take life, this question is still being debated both within and outside the USA.


The point is could TW have been given life in jail wihout parole. Would that have not met the ends of justice,
on Dec 31, 2005
I think it tells a lot about who YOU are that you think it is your JOB to educate and make the rest of us "think."

What have you said or done that makes you believe your views are better or more elevated than our own?

You write as if we have several steps to rise on the "reasoning pyramid" before reaching your vaulted plateau.

But from what I can see, and my eyes are WIDE open, is you standing at the bottom of the "reasoning" pyramid, with your eyes closed demanding others higher on the pyramid learn from you. But you are talking to the dirt because you believe you are on the top of the pyramid looking down at the rest of us. If you'd open YOUR eyes you'd see the reality.

It is...debating this entire issue is retarded. He is DEAD DEAD DEAD. Constantly talking about him and his "worth" is worthless.

AND if you'd shut up and listen you might figure out how to open your eyes and start the long trek up the pyramid. But first you might have to admit to yourself that some of us don't see you as a catalyst to make us "think" but more as an obstinate child who refuses to accept reality.

But I'm not holding my breath.
on Dec 31, 2005
Just 'cause Tookie only pulled the trigger on four doesn't mean he didn't start a system of murder, drugs, and corruption. So who's the bigger culprit?
---singrdave

Bingo, buddy; good call. Look at the Nazi bigwigs in the dock at Nuremberg, for example. None of them really DID anything wrong, but they were still guilty of crimes against humanity because they started the ball rolling. Same with Tookie.

You are turning political theory on its head:Representative democracy works best when the political leadership acts in accordance to the mandate from the people.
---Bahu

And by executing criminals, it is acting in accordance with its mandate. It is protecting us as best as possible from these people. Capital punishment will not halt murders altogether, or stop serial killers in their tracks. We all know that. However, if it makes just one out-of-control nutcase with a weapon in his/her hand stop for just a second and think "Whoa, I could get the chair for this; I'd better cool off before it goes any further", then it's done its job. Unfortunately, there's no way for us to know or document those cases.
Just as unfortunately, knowing about and documenting those cases would be the only way people like you would come to see the wisdom of state-sponsored execution.



If this is how the US democracy functions then Iraq War would not have happened.
---bahu

Hmmm....and here, I thought, all this time, we were talking about Tookie Williams. Oh well, okay.....a triumph for justice with the death of Tookie, and a triumph for democracy with the elections in Iraq. Looking pretty good from my perspective.
on Jan 01, 2006
As for the state having the right to take life, this question is still being debated both within and outside the USA.


Good. Americans should and "they" should too. All this debate over the death penalty is just making our nation stronger. It strengthens our Constitution and our perceived liberites and freedoms. So have at us, Bahu... we need this debate in order to strengthen our own resolve.
on Jan 01, 2006
What have you said or done that makes you believe your views are better or more elevated than our own?

You write as if we have several steps to rise on the "reasoning pyramid" before reaching your vaulted plateau.

But from what I can see, and my eyes are WIDE open, is you standing at the bottom of the "reasoning" pyramid, with your eyes closed demanding others higher on the pyramid learn from you. But you are talking to the dirt because you believe you are on the top of the pyramid looking down at the rest of us. If you'd open YOUR eyes you'd see the reality.
---Tova7



AND if you'd shut up and listen you might figure out how to open your eyes and start the long trek up the pyramid. But first you might have to admit to yourself that some of us don't see you as a catalyst to make us "think" but more as an obstinate child who refuses to accept reality.

But I'm not holding my breath.
---Tova7

On closer examination of this post, I believe Tova deserves a "triple snap", too! SNAP, SNAP SNAP!!!
on Jan 02, 2006
Syringe Stanley was nothing but a murderous waste of human flesh who chose his life, and chose his death.

Feeling sorry for him is a waste. He's dead, and the world is better for it.
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