He does "not" do America proud! Since your not an American or an US ex-serviceman, how would you know anyway? As far as we're concerned he betrayed his oath as a marine AND his fellow marines. And when you talk aboult the civilians killed, DO NOT SAY THE MARINES did it! At the worst it was a "squad" of marines (12 men) or more like a fire team (4 men) were involved. So it's only a FEW, NOT the entire organization.

I think your problem is you think in terms of international "brotherhood" or whatever, bahu. You don't see that we are at war, you see that we are just over there alongside the rest of the world unit doing this and that, most of which you disagree with. That isn't the way the world works, though.

In reality we are an insular nation, at war. Our interest is not Iraq's interest, or the UN's interest. Maybe it isn't even in our interest to give a damn what these other nations think. A US citizen can't see themselves as a citizen of the world during a time of war, offering what is wrongly called "neutral" propaganda.

Because if Murtha ends up NOT being right, he has cemented the sin in the minds of both Americans and the international community. When he says that Marines "murdered" people in "cold blood" and if perhaps later we find they were killed out of negligence or panic, people will still hold to the original image of soldiers going house killing out of vengeance.

In the end, you, and Murtha, and many others bend and twist language to make anything you find seems as heinous and outrageous as possible. That isn't simply expressing dissent. That is formulating propaganda to sway people's minds more than they would hearing just the simple details of the situation.

For you, well, you have that right in our modern society. For Murtha, a part of the government during a time of war, that's treason. He is purposely trying to undermine our efforts in Iraq with his carefully designed message. He has stepped way over the line.

drmiler

So it's only a FEW, NOT the entire organization

: BakerStreet

He is purposely trying to undermine our efforts in Iraq with his carefully designed message. He has stepped way over the line.

OK A squad of Marines not the whole organization.

Baker, the message that Murtha is giving out is a potent, charged message and it has a resonance across the world. Not just anti-Iraq war campaigners like me. He rightly feels that the moral authoprity that a large democratic superpower ought to enjoy in a unipolar world has been totally and needlessly compromised by the war in Iraq. Further, he sees the war only dragginmg the US into a quagmire from which exit will be even more difficult. And the US has complicated its situation by the conduct of the War which Murtha is questioning. To call it treason is not only undemocratic but fraught with consequences for the civil society of the US which is already reeling under the Patriot's Act and state spying. I may agree that these measures are necessary at this point in time but I would not be proud of these steps. He has stepped into a political vacumn that the ecplipse of the Bush Presidency will only make more glaring. Is any opposition to the War Treason. Then by the same logic any collaboration with the Americans in Iraq is Treason for the Iraqis and therefore a justification for the Insurgency. Of all the political voices from the USA at this point in time Jack Murth's seems to be the most measured. Remember the neoconmen took the Nationm to War on a false basis and if there is any treason it is they who are responsible.

drmiler So it's only a FEW, NOT the entire organization : BakerStreet He is purposely trying to undermine our efforts in Iraq with his carefully designed message. He has stepped way over the line. OK A squad of Marines not the whole organization.

Okay so you now understand. But obviously Murtha doesn't! He's painting the "entire" Marine Corp with the same brush.

But obviously Murtha doesn't! He's painting the "entire" Marine Corp with the same brush.

Now in the Hadita Incident the Marine Corps was involved and you forget that Jack Murtha himself is Marine fighting in Vietnam for which he was awarded the Purple Heart. My point is simple: disagree with Murtha by all means but do not label him unpatriotic as a fellow blogger had done in his blog (not drmiller). Putting up a distasteful cartton of a democratically elected Rep with an AK-47 rife in his hand and dressed like a terrorist is utterly wrong and such conduct has no place in a civilised discourse. Jack Mutrtha has been saying that the marines involved were pbobly motivated byn stress, combat stree.

But at the same time he calls it cold blooded murder, bahu. If you take someone's life in a panic of combat stress, it isn't cold blooded murder. What he and others don't understand is you aren't just serving anti-war interests, you are creating propaganda for our enemies during a time of war. Perhaps they did premeditatively kill people who were not a threat to them, but until it is found to be so, he has no right to prejudge them and create press for our enemies.

I think Murtha has every right to oppose the war, I never said he didn't. You simply can't see the difference between fairly opposing the war and churning out precisely-targeted propaganda that creates the impression we are losing, or that we are villains. There are plenty of people who oppose the war, but they don't spend their time combing the news for details that they can use to paint an innaccurate picture.

Murtha is like our Col here at JU. He knows that in order to sway people to his side he has to create dispair and a feeling of futility. I hate to break it to you, but a concerted effort to undermine the morale of a people during a time of war has always been considered enemy propaganda, and more often than not, treason. Sadly it is done now for petty political gain by people like Murtha, but it is still seeking to create a failure in a military effort from within.

Not everyone reads this kind of condemnation and becomes anti-war. Some of them become anti-US, and still others become PRO-war out of anger at us. If you are churning out material that could be used to recruit suicide bombers, methinks it wise to re-evaluate where you are coming from.

Now in the Hadita Incident the Marine Corps was involved and you forget that Jack Murtha himself is Marine fighting in Vietnam for which he was awarded the Purple Heart. My point is simple: disagree with Murtha by all means but do not label him unpatriotic as a fellow blogger had done in his blog (not drmiller). Putting up a distasteful cartoon of a democratically elected Rep with an AK-47 rife in his hand and dressed like a terrorist is utterly wrong and such conduct has no place in a civilized discourse. Jack Mutrtha has been saying that the marines involved were probably motivated by stress, combat stress.

You're falling back again....It was NOT the Corp in general. Therefore the "marine corp" WAS NOT involved! However a squad of marines were. What they did was wrong, however it was not done under orders from the Commanding General of the Corp so the "Corp" itself was not involved. And those that did it have been or are in the process of being punished for their crimes.

Murtha's Nam service has "absolutely" no bearing on what he's doing or saying now! If he said that then he's back-pedaling. He called them cold-blooded murderers. And saying things like this is NOT considered patriotic. At least not in my book. I'd be willing to bet he does NOT serve another term in the house. Hell...he'll be lucky if he can get a job as a dog-catcher.

You simply can't see the difference between fairly opposing the war and churning out precisely-targeted propaganda that creates the impression we are losing, or that we are villains. There are plenty of people who oppose the war, but they don't spend their time combing the news for details that they can use to paint an innaccurate picture.

I cannot see Jack Murtha doing that. The Pentagon has concluded that the Haditha Incident did take place and there has been a cover up. The facts that emerge are far more horrendous than what was originally thought. Hence Murtha cannot be blamed for drawing attention to this.I can understand the surge of patriotism when the territory of the US is invaded as did happen on 9/11. However the Marines are fighting in a war that most of the Iraqis believe to be an illegal war with a certain disdain for Iraqi lives. Murtha has, I believe, rightly drawn attention to this detail. I do not think that he is providing "aid and comfort" to the enemy.

Now Senator John Maccain, no blleding heart liberal, he came on CNN todaY AND SAID EXACTLY WHAT mURTHA HAS BEEN SAYING. nO ONE CAN ACCUSE him of being un patriotic. Please do not confuse patriotism with support for the Govt of the day. Two years from now Bush and the Bushmen woulsd have walked into oblivion but the horrors of Iraq will live on.

Now Senator John Maccain, no blleding heart liberal, he came on CNN todaY AND SAID EXACTLY WHAT mURTHA HAS BEEN SAYING. nO ONE CAN ACCUSE him of being un patriotic.

This statement proves once again that you have no idea what you are talking about. McCain is a bleeding heart liberal.

This statement proves once again that you have no idea what you are talking about. McCain is a bleeding heart liberal.

He just happens to be a Republican of Convenience. That may be where the confusion comes from.

It's not just this incident, though, with Murtha. If you follow his behavior he has done this at every opportunity during the war. That's part of what makes people angry. He's just opportunistically using the pain of the Iraqis and the possible shame of the Marines to create more anti-war propaganda.

In return, people will join the anti-US cause in part because of the extra-inflammatory rhetoric he uses. Not the anti-war cause, mind you, but the elements that strap on bombs and set up IEDs. Terrorists and people like Murtha swap talking points. You can oppose war and still not prop up the propaganda of murderers.

Al-Murtha going on talk shows on the Memorial Day weekend to trash our troops. How liberal of him.

In fact in exactly 2 days from now the White House will release the reports of 2 investigations that have been held. If there has been a coverup, hopefully the reports will fix responsibility. Both Island Dog and Baker seem to forget that there are rule of civilised combat and killing civilians is not done. You are right that the terrorists do not respect the rules of warfare. USA is a stae ans state actors have to abide by certain ground rules. Murtha and Maccain have only stressed the obvious.

War is War.....there should be no rules....it is as simple as that. When we try to "civilize" war, we only make war easier to turn to. If we went to war with the mind and thought of death & destruction (not shock & awe), then this war would have been finished a long time ago.

I do not understand why ppl want to make war a "pretty thing". Bahu, that is what you are doing, and you are attempting to hold the US to different standards than our enemies. If the US would just use (or, as you would surely say: abuse) its power, and simply ELIMINATE those ememies, not worrying about PR'ing everything....I would garuantee that not very many ppl would want to step into the ring with us. But while we have liberal AND conservative, alike, trying to do the crap that they do (think any anti-war protest), then the US is very much weakened.

If war was really, truly allowed to be "war", then I could understand, and even possibly support, those who are "against" it. But as to how war is now? War simply isn't what war should be. (this is not to degrade the deaths of soldiers and civilians, just, war is a day in Romper Room now compared to what it should be....lets get real, here: War should be HELL on earth, lest we grow too fond of it [i know it is not the exact quote, but still]).

War brings death & destruction. That is what war is, not this patty-cake rules of engagement garbage that only the US is held to. While we try to "do the job", and play the "face" (pro-wrestling term for the "good guy") every other enemy of the US is willingly playing the "heel" (pro-wrestling term for the "bad guy"), and breaking the rules openly.

Let us end this war, and simply take care of business. I think in another thread, it was discussed that America doesn't have the stomach for war. We want the war to be over with, with simple finality, but we don't want to commit to what has to be done to realize that finality. Let our soldiers do their jobs. Let them engage the enemy, and eliminate the enemy. I am not calling for open hostilities on innocents. But if innocents are in the wrong place, at the wrong time...that is just the way it goes in war (the true definition). Remember, the war on Terror started in our own backyard. Innocents were killed here. Many of our own innocents have been killed over in Iraq. (I know, Saddam didn't actually have anything to do with 9-11, and I am not saying he did. The War on Terror is simply that, the War on Terror, and Iraq is part of that war, whether the left believes so or not.....Saddam was a TERRORIST to his own ppl)

Let war be simply this: WAR. If it is ugly, bloody, brutal, deadly, devastating, ect ect ect....then perhaps we won't thrust ourselves into it so often. In other words, let war not be a political tool (or the anti-war movement, I am speaking to you, Mr. John Kerry, and everyone else that "voted for the war before I voted against it"!!) it is being used as by the left OR the right.

Chris

Lets remember Murtha's biggest CRIME is he has convicted these men with no trial, and his blathering on about this incident is being shown all over the Arab world, carefully cut and edited in order to condemn not just the entire corps but the American people.

Murtha should be ashamed of his self.

He should be asked to step down from his position as a member of the house of representatives.