One more thing, Arty: Have you ever seen an Israeli government building?

So, of the 1600 wounded and 390 killed (so far), that means that 1,360 Hamas members were wounded and 331 Hamas members have been killed?

But yet, Hamas says only 200 of their people have been killed.

Who do we believe? The whole place is now a closed military area after all so we really can't say with any certainty just exactly what the percentage of civillian vs. Hamas casualties are. Even so, that's missing the point. There's not a magical percentage of bad guys vs civillians killed which suddenly makes it all ok. If there is, what is the ratio? Is one innocent civillian killed as collateral damage ok if 10 bad guys die at the same time? And what gives us the moral right to make that call? 1 in 10 casualties a civy killed is ok, but 2 in 10 is unacceptable, or does it go higher?

As to the fact that you're disputing the statement that the majority of casualties in densely packed urban areas tend to be civillians when being subjected to indirect fire, this is actually very well known and I'm surprised you're disputing it. It's been proven time and again, but if you'd like, I can break it down and explain it for you:

In an urban environment, the combatants generally know what is coming and are prepared for it. This means they know to stay away from windows (or have already removed the windows) have a safe area they can go to where they will be mostly protected from flying debris and shrapnel, and are smart enough to choose areas which will give them multiple possible escape routes in the event of a building collapse and be in areas which are generally structurally sound.

On top of this, the combatants know that there is a good chance they could be wounded or cut off from supply so they tend to have a cache of medical supplies and food on hand, or have such a cache in relatively close proximity to their position.

Going another step further, they know that the other side will know about all of their official buildings- this is government buildings, police headquarters and depots and so on. Knowing this, they won't be sticking around in such a building when they know the other side has the ability to take out these places with ease.

Meanwhile, you have a whole bunch of people (this is civillians) just going about their daily lives when suddenly the shite hits the fan. Bombs create nice big shockwaves which blow out all of the windows in buildings in a wide radius far from the actual explosion. The blast itself tends to take nice big chunks of concrete and rebar and send that zooming around as shrapnel too.

The combatants know all of this and are prepared for it. The civillians always get caught in the crossfire, and this has been proven time and again in both small and large urban battles. Once you have actual boots on the ground, ie; squad, platoon and company level units fighting their way door to door and calling in fire support as necessary, THEN the dynamic changes quite a bit and the casualty ratio switches to being mostly combatants.

Well, actually yes I do. They're a major political force in Lebanon and have pretty much solidified their power base in the south. As to why they're not joining in, I'd imagine that it's because Nasrallah hasn't given the order to. Remember, Hezbollah never acts until it's leadership issues clear orders -and- they usually let folks know well in advance what they're going to do. For example, the cross border raids that precipitated the 2006 war were anounced well in advance- Nasrallah stated that if hostage negotiations broke down they would launch raids to get their own hostages. Lo and behold, when the negotiations broke down, that's exactly what they did. Who'da thunk it?

Show me once where I've said that anti-semitism doesn't exist. Of course it exists. I'm just putting forth the position that not every single attack and every single fighter out there is motivated by the desire to wipe out the Jewish race. Once Israel can admit that maybe, just maybe some of the folks out there might be fighting them because they have a legitimate beef over the death of a loved one killed by an Israeli bombing or raid, then the conflict can be seen in a different light. For example, let's say you have a child who's lost his father or mother as a "collateral" casualty civillian in this air bombardment, that child will probably grow up blaming Israel for the death of his parents, motivating him towards a desire for vengeance. And so it goes, and so it will go until maybe, we just might wipe each other out (the human race) lock stock and barrel

And I take it that we have already decided that Hamas do not lie?

Actually, they have been a major political force in Lebanon for a while and their military presence in the south has been replaced by international troops and Lebanese military.

For five years they bombarded Israel and since 2006 they have stopped.

Don't believe me? I was there. I was there in 2006 and 2007. I saw the difference.

Yes, and that position is wrong.

Can you feel a particular hatred against Americans and British coming from me or my parents?

We don't have to do a gedankenexperiment. I am the child of someone whose house was bombed by the Americans when he was six years old. And I have no desire for vengeance at all.

There are those in Germany who have a desire for vengeance, for Dresden for example, but oddly enough they are always to be found among right-wing extremists and they usually hate foreigners and Jews too.

The thing is, you always state as facts what isn't even arguable but I have already seen to be wrong (at best) or lies (at worst). You keep telling me things about my life that I have experienced differently than you say I have.

I am telling you here quite clearly and for everyone to hear, so that you cannot, if you were simply wrong about it (perhaps you really didn't know and never investigated much), make that mistake again:

1. My father's parents' house was destroyed by American (or possibly British) bombs when he was six years old.

2. The family could not reach the house or do anything with it for 55 years because of the border within Germany created by the occupation. We got the house back in the early 90s and sold it.

3. I do not blame the Americans for the bombing and I have no desire for vengeance.

4. If I hated Americans, like some Germans do, I would probably blame them for the bombings.

I can also assure you that I hold no grudges against Poland, Russia (not for its part in the occupation as such anyway), the UK, and France (again, not for its part in the occupation anyway). I feel no need to blow up schools and kindergardens in Russia because of the occupation, or in the US; I do not want to attack anything or anybody in Poland, despite the fact that we lost so much land to this newly created state in World Wars 1 and 2; in fact I am entirely sympathetic to Poland and the Americans, as you may have noticed.

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1020.html

This sentence:

is totally and utterly wrong. I know so many people in Germany who have lost their father or mother as a collateral* casualty civilian in air bombardment. And the vast majority of them do not blame the Allies for the deaths. Those few that do (and in defence of Germany, they are very few indeed) hate most other people do, most prominently foreigners and minorities (including Jews).

Hatred is not a response to a real event. Hatred is irrational.

(* That's the non-Jewish "collateral". As per international custom among progressives I do not imply that collateral casualties are not really accidents unless Jews are responsible for them. Again, I do this because I feel no hatred towards the perpetrators of the bombings and feel no need to make them appear evil.)

Do you know who hates Arabs in Israel? I don't have statistics, but I talk to people. Following your theory of where hatred comes from and mine (and making a decision which is better), try to figure out who hates Arabs more:

1. Mizrahi Jews whose parents or grandparents fled from Arab countries with tales of persecution and death.

OR

2. Recent Russian immigrants who had never seen an Arab before they ran into the Israeli customs official.

Where are you from, Canada? Canadian forces bombed Berlin too, didn't they? Would you say I have a "legitimate beef" with you because of that? Weird, that we are finding ourselves on exactly opposite sides instead. Perhaps your theory is wrong?

My late wife was born in Baghdad. Her brother was almost hanged because he believed in Israel. All their goods and home were taken (they were wealthy and lived in Korada). In Israel they lived in a tent, and then in a wooden 'Tzrif'. They routinely killed vipers in their new home.

The children grew up, and took care of the old and ailing parents (of blessed memory)...all ten children.

They were raised with love and respect and educated. They passed this love and respect on to others. When I was alone there, they took me into their home. My late wife's mother loved and regarded me as another son.

When the Gulf war happened and Saddam sent missles against Israel they sent their mother to us in America because she (on crippled knees) couldn't get to the shelter quickly. I took her into my home and treated her as my other mother. She was never a stranger or "mother-in-law".

Does this sound anything like mothers sending their children to be suicide bombers to get paid for that act?

Does any of this sound like people who would slaughter others indiscriminately?

Take your sophistry elsewhere. You have no heart. The Israelis have been embattled since forever. This time they need to end Hamas's hateful aims.

Hamas wants only by violence to take the land of Israel and kill the Israeli Jews.

Hamas is a bunch of shiftless, hateful, racist islamofascist killers. If you don't know that by now, give it up...

Oh Leauki,

Well, for one the situation in Germany after WW2 and the allied occupation of it are completely different, and not really comparable to what is going on in Palestine today. You keep going back to your great worldly experience (which for the most part has very little to do with what I'm talking about) as some kind of proof. My country (Canada) is filled with people who are essentially the refugees from conflicts around the globe, many from Palestine and Lebanon.

They paint a much different picture than you do my good fellow!

So, tell me, have you ever had your father or brothers taken in a raid in the middle of the night, never to be seen again? (or locked away in prison for years with no explanation or jurisprudence because they lived in a 'military' zone not privy to civillian laws?)

Eh? I never put forth a "theory of where hatred comes from" all I stated is the opinion that not every single attack against Israel is necessarily due solely to anti-semitism.  That maybe, just maybe, families who have lost multiple members over a prolonged period of time to an occupying authority might be embittered to them. While your vast and worldly experience seems to suggest otherwise, this is often the case in military occupations throughout history.

If you were as knowledgeable as you like to continually tell us you are, then you'd know about the algebra of occupation-

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4766

Right here. T.E Lawrence figured it out pretty well back when the British were occupying Iraq shortly after WW1.

As to why maybe, just maybe someone might harbor resentment against Israel -other- than the anti-semite argument, let's take a look see here-

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Medical_System.asp

root site here-

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

Perhaps the family of the cancer patient who passed away after being denied entry would be a little upset with Israel? Just maybe?

Artysim:

I like a lively discussion. So does the IDF. I'm sure they'd love to take you along when Hamas refuses to stop it's rocket fire and they procede to pulverize Gaza.

They'll probably announce when they're coming by allowing the women and children to make a safe exit....maybe not.

On the other hand, if you're clever and brave you might find a way into Gaza and wait for the Israelis to arrive. If you stand out in the open waving an American flag I think the Israelis would honor that or at least be really curious...Not sure about Hamas, though.

Maybe you'd like to take an "informative tour" over there and argue with some of the folks you seem to think so little of they're the ones in the green fatigues who won't shoot first and ask questions later. Do watch out for the ones who look like sock puppets as they might not extend the same courtesy.

Some advice: Address the Israelis with the same attitude you display here...the "know it all" supercilious one, and offer to teach them about their history.

I'm sure they'll treat you well. Really well. Just as you deserve.

Why?

I have no doubt about it.

They obviously expected Israel to help. And Israel didn't.

That's certainly reason to hate it, isn't it?

If the terrorists ever shoot Arty, rest assured I will act in his spirit and explain that shooting Arty is "resistance" and that the terrorists probably had reason to hate him.

Turns out it wasn't just Israel that didn't help Arty's tool, the unfortunate cancer patient. Arty also didn't help him. And now they hate him for it, obviously.

That family could have taken the patient to Cairo. Wonder why they didn't?

The Shin Bet refused that patient entrance...not the hospital. Maybe he had some sort of security red flag attached to him?

"The Physicians For HUman Rights" organization petitioned the High Court but I believe he died before the appeal could be heard.

The thing smells a bit: There was no "miracle cure" in Israel so why there? Why wasn't he sent to Egypt and if only some Israeli Oncologist was able to treat him have the MD brought with meds to Egypt? Maybe Israel was damned if they did take him and he died or didn't take him and he died.

Naaah...I think that maybe the patient was being manipulated to cause a smear on Israel.

I've never heard of anything like that in the past, and I happen to know that thousands of Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza have been treated in Israel.

Well, occasionally the Arabs kidnap an Israeli and torture him to death.

Different cultures...

A very good article about Hamas and the situation in Gaza:

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/12/31/phares_gaza/

It's interesting that nobody cried for the hundreds of Palestinian Arabs killed by Hamas during their uprising against the PLO. They were people too. They had families. And in contrast to Hamas operatives, they actually tried to improve the situation for their people.

Terrorism has become the hated "T" word and after the Mimbai Terror attaks, many have lost whatever misguided sympathy they may have had for the Palestenian cause. Losing sympathy does not, however, mean that they do not have a cause. We have a fundamental disagreement on how to settle them.

First, what does Israel seek to achieve. I think Larry Kuperman has an important point when he says that the labor Party and Kadima are likely to bebnefir t from this attack on HAMAS. Is the air attck timed to garner votes in the election. I hope not.

Second, it is obvious that Israel cannot hope to destroy HAMAS and as I stated the objective seems to be degrade its offensive capability in a significant manner. And in this Israel will succeed.

Third, will the air attack follwed by ground attack help to bring peace. The answer is a resounding NO. The moderates stand to lose the most as they will be perceived as footmen for the Israelis.

Now the fact is Israel is showuing all signs of Imperial hubris in throwing caution to the wind and ingulging in indiscriminate violence. A few months back I would have said that is unacceptable but the War on Terror follows different rules as the terrorists do not respect the lives of women and children they target. So the humanitarian argument is  humbug.

Israel has had a very successful policy of targetted assasinations and I think it is time for Israel to follow through on this.

Exactly.

Yes, I agree. But for some reason there was a major outcry about that policy.

Why would anyone want a terrorist killed?

Don't worry, Artysim...this time Israel probably won't stop until it's done. I'll light candles for that!

Humanitarian crisis? LOL. This time that trick/whine ain't working.