Here's a tip for your smack-talk, when you want to challenge someone's patriotism like that, make sure you aren't talking to a veteran.

Well what gives a veteran the right to question someone elses patriotism and threaten that person into silence? Is that what they have all been fighting for, the right to silence anybody whose views they don't agree with? I don't think so! As soon as we do that, we become just like the very thing that our troops have been fighting against. We become the very monster that we have been trying so hard to destroy. The First Amendment does not say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances except in cases where the views expressed are not in line with the far-right conservatives." There is no exception made.

As far as questioning his patriotism - that is exactly what ParaTed did to Virupaksha. I turned the tables on him. So what? My point is if he thinks that he has the right to openly question the patriotism of someone else because of what they believe, then he should expect someone else, somewhere along the line to question him. He should not expect to have it both ways, veteran or no. Being a veteran gets you a lot of respect from some quarters, but it doesn't and it should not give you license to act or speak in a dishororable fashion. When you do that, you cheapen the honor and reputation of all veterans - including my late Grandfather who ran away from home at the age of 14 and lied about his age so that he could join the Navy and support his family, who served his country for the better part of 38 years, who was sationed at Pearl Harbor 7 Dec 41 and lived to tell the tale, who served in every major theatre in the Pacific including Midway, Guadacanal and the Phillipines, who came home to raise a family and taught us to respect and honor our country and all those who fought and died for her, who passed away 11 years ago and whose presence I miss to this day.

So if ParaTed is a veteran then I say good for him, more power to him. That still doesn't give him license to act in a manner unbecoming to someone who has defended our rights to express ourselves freely. There are better ways for him to get his point across than lashing out like that, because when he does that it dishonors all veterans out there including my Grandfather, and that is something that I take very personally.

For that he should be ashamed of himself.

See, that's a bit of a problem. I've tried to enlist. I've been medically barred from enlistment.

Same here. I have a lot of small physical problems that if it was was just limited to one wouldn't disqualify me, but add them all up and they make me physically unfit for duty. Bad knees, bad back, bad feet, bad eyes and a genetic disposition for diabetes made the recruiters say "Sorry son, can't use you. Besides your age disqualifies you even if were were fit." (I'm 38)

So, if military service is all that is required to prove patriotism and support, does this meet your level of proof?

Nope, it's not just millitary service, its more than that. It also has to do with respecting the views and opinions of others who may not agree with your own. That is waht I was taught, and that is what a lot of the wives that I work with in my office who were left behind when the 116th was deployed to Iraq believe as well. They know that there are people out there who think of their husbands as "baby killers", they know this yet they still feel that they are entitled to their opinions because that is one of the things their husbands are fighting for.

Myself? I was working for a circuit board manufacturer that produces some of the components that go into some of the cruise missles and tanks being used in the Gulf right now. At least I was until I was downsized. Now I've got a different job but I still want to support our troops somehow. So my wife ran across http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfmLink where you can send care packages to the troops overseas - which we have done and will continue to do when our finances allow for it. I fly my flag (weather permitting), I display those magnetic ribbons on my car, I wear a flag pin with a yellow ribbon on it that I still have from the Gulf War everytime I go to work, everytime I meet a veteran on the job I thank him or her for their service and tell them about my Grandfather.

So no, it's not just military service. There are all sorts of small ways that we can all show our support. I have a friend at my office who is in the Naval Reserves. He wqas called to do his two-week stint this last Mother's Day. As soon as he got onboard - they shipped out. For a while there it looked as if they were going to be sent to the Gulf. His wife and their four kids were on pins and needles at home wondering when - or if - daddy was ever going to come home. We were all there to support them and give them a shoulder to lean on.

And we all breathed a sigh of relief when my friend came home this past month, safe and sound.

So there are other ways of supporting the troops - like giving aid and comfort to those who are left behind. Sometimes they are the ones who need the support the most.

LW is correct! "BEFORE" you start talking "smack" about someone and questioning their patriotism, you should "first" inquire as to whether or not they're a vet! Which just for "your" info you'll find that most of us here are vets or the spouse of a current military member. And for the record are you now or have you ever been in the US military? If not it's time to put up or shut up.

See? This is what I am talking about - disrespect.

I know that a lot of you may feel that I showed a lot of disrespect for ParaTed in my post - and you know what? You're right, I did! I DID IT TO ILLUSTRATE A POINT!!!!!! The point is if you disrespect someones viewpoint and question their patriotism, then you should expect the same thing to be visited upon your house! You shouldn't expect to-have-it-both-ways!

Now don't get me wrong, I love smack talk (which should be fairly obvious right about now), as long as it's intelligent smack talk and it shows some imagination. What ParaTed was doing was just the same-old-same-old crap that we have been hearing and seeing for the past year in the local fishwrap. By this point it is nothing but dull and totally without merit.

You want to go after someone's viewpoints? Go ahead, have at it! But do it in a way that makes me not think that we are all nothing but a bunch of smack talking gangstas who are being manipulated in someone else's version of Grand Theft Auto: Red vs Blue. That's what we've become people! We're not talking about Conservatives vs Liberals, Republicans vs Democrats, or Red Vs Blue anymore...we're talking the Bloods vs Crips. That's what we've turned into now! We've turned into a couple of street gangs fighting for territory, only it's not over who gets to sell what drugs on certain street corners. Now we're fighting over who gets to say what about whom and how often do they get to say it.

I swear, I'm waiting for the day when I open up my local fishwrap and read about how some Conservative Republican is in jail because he put a shotgun into the grill of some Liberal Democrat and pulled the trigger because he didn't like his views on the war.

Come on people, enough is enough.

Gen Franks Op Plan 1003(Iraq War Plan) is detailed in The Price of Loyalty by Ron Susking.

I said facts and proof. A book, which I'm sure is a Bush bashing one anyways, is not proof. Provide it, or keep quiet about it.

Paul Bremen said he asked Bush for more troops and Bush did NOTHING to provide the added troops! We never establish the proper control of the borders, amo dumps, areas of unrest or protect things like water and oil lines etc

Once again col, provide your proof.

There were no terrorists that endangered the US in Iraq prior to Bush invading Iraq.

I can name two right off the top of my head.

The way this war was conducted after Saddam fell is a disgrace principally because Bush do not listen to his military chiefs who have a hell of a lot more understanding of what it takes to control a country then George W. Bush. We have a Commander in Chief that does not possess the military knowledge himself and does not listen to those that have the military experience and know how. His choice to send less troops then required has caused many American lives and injuries. Great Job Mr. Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bush has given the generals what they asked for. I have seen the top generals in Iraq asked if the President has given them what they needed, and the answer is always yes. You are so full of bs it's not even funny anymore.

Whats more important is that we give the terrorists what they need, a ton of bombs and lots of caskets!

LW is correct! "BEFORE" you start talking "smack" about someone and questioning their patriotism, you should "first" inquire as to whether or not they're a vet! Which just for "your" info you'll find that most of us here are vets or the spouse of a current military member. And for the record are you now or have you ever been in the US military? If not it's time to put up or shut up. See? This is what I am talking about - disrespect.

"This" is disrespect? If you call this disrespectful, I'd have to call into question you definition of the word. You ain't seen disrespect. I served for 6 years in the Navy and believe me I can hand out a MESS of disrespect! As far as calling Bahu's patriotism into view... You need to do a little checking before you talk. As far as I know Bahu isn't even an american. Do NOT assume that because someone is posting here that they are American! And just an FYI, show me where ParaTed2K "threatened" Bahu into silence. That is, "if" you can find it. And as a secondary point...what gives you the right to talk trash about someone who has posted a TON of articles and greatly contributed to this site as opposed to you who have done NEITHER!

they can banish on a whim, though I've never seen it done.

Ha, ha.

they can banish on a whim, though I've never seen it done. Ha, ha.

Ha, ha what? Can you show just one example of admin "banishing" anyone on a whim.

Ok, I will cop to this: at no time in his post did ParaTed actually say threaten Bahu into shutting up "or else". You guys are right about that and I was wrong to insinuate that.

Now, I have a question for ya...how is the language that Ted used not threatening? I hear this all the time on the radio, in the fishwrap, I see it everywhere. The insinuation in using this kind of language is that "you'd better keep your mouth shut if you don't agree with me...or else."

Now, drmiler, you say you served six years in the Navy? Fantastic! Fanfreakingtastic! I'm not being sarcastic when I say this either when I say thank you.

Now, I noticed that in your quote you stopped at a certain point and didn't include...

I know that a lot of you may feel that I showed a lot of disrespect for ParaTed in my post - and you know what? You're right, I did! I DID IT TO ILLUSTRATE A POINT!!!!!!

Which was all I was trying to do. Hello.

Now, did I go too far? Eh, I'll admit to that and say yeah, I did.

That's all. I'll leave it at that and say yeah, I went too far.

I suppose that instead of drawing these terrorists to Iraq to fight us there, you'd prefer we wait until they attack us on our own soil again?

Well, we were already fighting them in Afghanistan, where they were located. Why, oh why demolish an entire country and kill off thousands of their citizens if they had nothing whatsoever to do with either the terrorists or 9/11? That's the thought process here, for those who still think there was a link. But, now that we've brought the war to Iraq, and the terrorists have migrated over to that country, we've got a HUGE problem. But still, justifying it because of 9/11 is an absolute lie. And, the travesty is that people are still buying it.

Posted by: Robert Cox at October 28, 2004 02:09 PM

For what it's worth, here's the connection, from my original post. It was no videoconference. They were asked to change their focus to Iraq.

http://www.topdog04.com/000781.html

Bob Woodward's Plan of Attack:

When he was back at the Pentagon, two miles from the White House across the Potomac River in Virginia, Rumsfeld immediately had the Joint Staff begin drafting a Top Secret message to General Franks requesting a "commander's estimate," a new take on the status of the Iraq war plan and what Franks thought could be done to improve it. The general would have about a week to make a formal presentation to Rumsfeld. (Page 5)

"Hey," Newbold said in his best take-notice voice, "I've got a real tough problem for you. The secretary's going to ask you to start looking at your Iraq planning in great detail - and give him a new commander's estimate."

"You got to be shitting me," Renuart said. "We're only kind of busy on some other things right now. Are you sure?"

"Well, yeah. It's coming. So stand by."

The current Iraq war plan, Op Plan 1003, was some 200 pages with 20-plus annexes numbering another 600 pages on logistics, intelligence, air, land and sea operations. According to this plan, it would take the United States roughly seven months to move a force of 500,000 to the Middle East before launching military operations. Renuart went to see General Franks, who had received only a vague indication there had been discussion in Washington about the Iraq war plan. Renuart now had more detail.

"Hey, boss," Renuart said, reporting that a formal request of a commander's estimate was coming. "So we'd better get on it."

Franks was incredulous. They were in the midst of one war, Afghanistan, and now they wanted detailed planning for another, Iraq? "Goddamn," Franks said, "what the fuck are they talking about?" (Page 8)

That morning, six days after the president's request on the Iraq war plan, Rumsfeld flew to see General Franks at CENTCOM headquarters in Tampa. After greeting everyone, he kicked Franks's staff as well as his own aides out of the room, even telling his military assistant, Vice Admiral Giambastiani, "Ed, I need you to step outside."

"Pull the Iraq planning out and let's see where we are," Rumsfeld told Franks when they were alone. (Page 36)

"Let's put together a group that can just think outside the box completely," Rumsfeld ordered. "Certainly we have traditional military planning, but let's take away the constraints a little bit and think about what might be a way to solve this problem." (Page 37)

Four days later, December 1, a Saturday, Rumsfeld sent through the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff a Top Secret planning order to Franks asking him to come up with the commander's estimate to build the base of a new Iraq war plan. In two pages the order said Rumsfeld wanted to know how Franks would conduct military operations to remove Saddam from power, eliminate the threat of any possible weapons of mass destruction, and choke off his suspected support of terrorism. This was the formal order for thinking outside the box.

The Pentagon was supposed to give Franks 30 days to come up with his estimate - an overview and a concept for something new, a first rough cut. "He had a month and we took 27 days away," recalled Marine General Pete Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and a Rumsfeld favorite. Franks was to report in person three days later. (Page 38)

Bob Woodward's Plan of Attack: December 12 he and Renuart returned to the Pentagon to give Rumsfeld their update. (Page 42)

Franks got only another week before Rumsfeld summoned him back to the Pentagon on December 19 for the third iteration. (Page 43)

Posted by: topdog04 [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 6, 2005 02:30 PM

The total force was 500,000 and the force level the day Saddam fell was 300,000. Bush screrwed the pooch and brave American military lost their lives because of the choice Bush made to go it on the cheep in Iraq.

Hey ParaTed, guess what? You've already lost your argument genius! Know whay? Because instead of contering Virupaksha's post with some facts of your own, you started out by calling him a fool and letting all the rest of us know that you don't have a good arguement to counter his with! Nice going! Now you've just made yourself look like the schoolyard bully who just pushed him off of the swing set, kicked him in the head, took his lunch money and says "Watch where your going faggot!" as you walk off to search for a little girl to punch.

--It isn't like the liberals are free of ignorant/idiotic comments (no offense para...)

--keeping tabs its , so far, been 60-40 in terms of left-right stupid comments...

Col, quoting an anti-Bush book is not providing facts. Try again.

" Col, quoting an anti-Bush book is not providing facts. Try again"
Actually IslandDog you're foolish to say that. One needs to look at the supposed facts that are being stated. To dismiss before hearing anything about it is ignorant. I read from both sides and make judgements based upon observation, not on what the author's politics are. What the hell's the matter with you?

Actually IslandDog you're foolish to say that. One needs to look at the supposed facts that are being stated. To dismiss before hearing anything about it is ignorant. I read from both sides and make judgements based upon observation, not on what the author's politics are. What the hell's the matter with you?

Col hasn't presented facts. He presents quotes from a book that was intended to go against Bush. When the col presents real facts, then we can talk.

I have read most of your posts. You make judgements based on the usual conspiracy theories, lies, and rhetoric that come from the left in this country. You are the one of the one's here who make ridiculous accusations against Bush and the U.S. with no facts to back up your stories. What is the matter with you?

I'm just gonna pop in and mention how no one's said that Ted deserved to get the same tone that he gave. I just want to throw that out there for all of you who jumped on me and told me that I was only getting my own "tone" back when I was attacked.

But whatever, he's on the right, just like y'all are, so he's entitled to the protection. Me, I happily go on, fending for myself.

#4 by BigDaddyCoolID

I admit, my response to Bahu was liberally peppered with "smack talk", however, there was also a whole lot of countering his points, but I guess you chose to jump over all that, like you chose to forget (or not bother to learn) that I am a disable vet, a U.S. Military Retiree and was in Desert Storm and involved with support operations for most of the "brushfires" of the late 80s, early 90s. Even with that, if I were physically able, I would still be in the Wisconsin National Guard. But nice shot anyway!!!

My counter to the "If you're so fired up about this war" BS would be...

If you consider Prs. Bush such an evil person who has nothing more than powerlust and empire building with this war, why don't you go join up with those who are fighting against him?

The insurgents would gladly take someone ready, willing and able to fight against Prs. Bush. If you aren't willing to fight for what you believe, then quit pointing your stinking finger at others!!!!